Lessons learned from this project.
1) Better tweeter with so-so coils and capacitors behind it will blow away not as good of a tweeter with fancy caps and coils in the x-over.
2) This particular speaker with down firing port sounds best on the tall hollow stand.
3) 4th order LR x-over protects drivers at the power limits better then lower order filters.
D2010 scan-speak tweeter is used in the original 2.5 ProAc and in 2.5 ProAc clones.
While not a bad tweeter, at all it comes short on the very top. In my clone, I have Goertz coils behind.
Hiquphone OWI has 18gage sidewinder coils in the x-over section. While comparing 2.5 to this speaker, Hiquphone OWI came out as clear winner for me. No mater the volume, it didn’t miss a single detail. We have listened to this speaker as loud as anyone could, possibly clipping 250wtpch Adcome amp. Hiquphone didn’t budge and threw out everything there was on the recording. Great recordings sounded phenomenal, bad recordings sounded painful.
While playing same material on the clones, I’ve noticed that D2010 starts rolling off earlier and some of the nuances weren’t there. It may also be the shortcomings or necessary differences in the clone crossover design. D2010 didn’t do it for me on a really good recordings, however on the crappy ones it didn’t make Wana flee the room.
This is purely subjective opinion at this point and I cannot back it up with a measured data just yet. Will set up Sound Easy soon.
I asked Keith to write up his own opinion. I think we spend a good 5 or 6 hours listening.
1) Better tweeter with so-so coils and capacitors behind it will blow away not as good of a tweeter with fancy caps and coils in the x-over.
2) This particular speaker with down firing port sounds best on the tall hollow stand.
3) 4th order LR x-over protects drivers at the power limits better then lower order filters.
D2010 scan-speak tweeter is used in the original 2.5 ProAc and in 2.5 ProAc clones.
While not a bad tweeter, at all it comes short on the very top. In my clone, I have Goertz coils behind.
Hiquphone OWI has 18gage sidewinder coils in the x-over section. While comparing 2.5 to this speaker, Hiquphone OWI came out as clear winner for me. No mater the volume, it didn’t miss a single detail. We have listened to this speaker as loud as anyone could, possibly clipping 250wtpch Adcome amp. Hiquphone didn’t budge and threw out everything there was on the recording. Great recordings sounded phenomenal, bad recordings sounded painful.
While playing same material on the clones, I’ve noticed that D2010 starts rolling off earlier and some of the nuances weren’t there. It may also be the shortcomings or necessary differences in the clone crossover design. D2010 didn’t do it for me on a really good recordings, however on the crappy ones it didn’t make Wana flee the room.
This is purely subjective opinion at this point and I cannot back it up with a measured data just yet. Will set up Sound Easy soon.
I asked Keith to write up his own opinion. I think we spend a good 5 or 6 hours listening.
R-Carpenter said:
Well gosh Roman, you did one up on the rest of us by assembling the cross-over, and attaching it to the walls, BEFORE assembling the box. I'm impressed!
I really am, no kidding! I wonder if anyone else caught that little touch?
Opps, I thought you screwed the boards to the walls, but upon second sight, I see that you must have glued them to the box.
Say it ain't so Joe?!
Don’t you see a brass screw head there? I did screw them in to the walls so in case I have to, I can pull them out.
One more thing. BSC 8ohm resistor will be pulled out and replaced with a pair of 16 ohm resistors.
We played these suckers extremely loud for a long period of time and a single 8 ohm resistor gets warm.
John, the crossover is in it’s own box. I have the removable top for now, until the speaker is measured and finalized.
One more thing. BSC 8ohm resistor will be pulled out and replaced with a pair of 16 ohm resistors.
We played these suckers extremely loud for a long period of time and a single 8 ohm resistor gets warm.
John, the crossover is in it’s own box. I have the removable top for now, until the speaker is measured and finalized.
R-Carpenter said:It IS cheap Formica! I glued it on with contact cement!
Thank you John.
I learned one thing in the interior design business, when working with fabric. The most expensive and the cheapest almost always look pretty much the same, until you get up real close and personal with it.
And there are many who don't even know the difference, no matter how close they look.
So I was there. I brought my cousin too as he is like a brother and loves his music too.
So we set up everything and Roman was curious to hear what my ProAc Studio I MKII speakers sounded like!
So we put on some very well produced older jazz. We listened to them. Then we listened to his 2.5 clones and then Roman's nameless design (The Last Bookshelf).
I was very disappointed! I drove all this way and schlepped all this equipment to hear this? I didn't need this because it always starts a snowball effect!
My speakers sucked! Well not really, Roman said he was surprised and they sounded better than he thought they would (whatever that means, LOL). Actually they are nice but compared to his 2.5 clone and his nameless. Mine were bottom of the heap.
His clone has a very nice way of filling his huge shop with nothing but hard surfaces everywhere. The soundstage was bigger than the speakers placement and everything sounded great because they were also forgiving on more poorly recorded/produced CDs.
Then we listened to the nameless. Details that were ignored by the other two speakers were suddenly part of the presentation. You wouldn't have missed it until you heard these and went back to the others. After hearing the details that were previously unknown, you wanted them back when listening to the two other pairs. They just made everything so much more interesting. We played a lot of well produced CDs and they really lit the music up. The only thing that I felt was missing was a soundstage or just more ambiance. The other two pairs did this and Only this better. This may also have been because they had only a few hours on them and the size of the room. But by the end we certainly warmed them up a bit but not enough to overtake the clones with soundstage. Your room may respond differently.
The nameless bookshelf speakers deliver everything that is there. So that means everything, good and bad. They might just make a percentage of your collection hard to hear for long periods. This is not a flaw with the speakers but rather the people that brought the CD to market like this. Unfortunately this happens too much! My Brittany Spears CD for instance...... Only kidding.
My only consolation was that Roman gave me some ideas on how to mod my speakers to slightly improve their sound. I would have rather a pair of each of his speakers but something tells me that might have been expensive. Especially because my cousin would have needed some too and that would start a war at home or just a divorce!
If you ever wind up in Brooklyn let Roman know that you will stop by! You will truly enjoy yourself and learn a few things. Just bring the Pizza with you cause delivery took long enough for us all to lose some weight!
Regards//Keith
So we set up everything and Roman was curious to hear what my ProAc Studio I MKII speakers sounded like!
So we put on some very well produced older jazz. We listened to them. Then we listened to his 2.5 clones and then Roman's nameless design (The Last Bookshelf).
I was very disappointed! I drove all this way and schlepped all this equipment to hear this? I didn't need this because it always starts a snowball effect!
My speakers sucked! Well not really, Roman said he was surprised and they sounded better than he thought they would (whatever that means, LOL). Actually they are nice but compared to his 2.5 clone and his nameless. Mine were bottom of the heap.
His clone has a very nice way of filling his huge shop with nothing but hard surfaces everywhere. The soundstage was bigger than the speakers placement and everything sounded great because they were also forgiving on more poorly recorded/produced CDs.
Then we listened to the nameless. Details that were ignored by the other two speakers were suddenly part of the presentation. You wouldn't have missed it until you heard these and went back to the others. After hearing the details that were previously unknown, you wanted them back when listening to the two other pairs. They just made everything so much more interesting. We played a lot of well produced CDs and they really lit the music up. The only thing that I felt was missing was a soundstage or just more ambiance. The other two pairs did this and Only this better. This may also have been because they had only a few hours on them and the size of the room. But by the end we certainly warmed them up a bit but not enough to overtake the clones with soundstage. Your room may respond differently.
The nameless bookshelf speakers deliver everything that is there. So that means everything, good and bad. They might just make a percentage of your collection hard to hear for long periods. This is not a flaw with the speakers but rather the people that brought the CD to market like this. Unfortunately this happens too much! My Brittany Spears CD for instance...... Only kidding.
My only consolation was that Roman gave me some ideas on how to mod my speakers to slightly improve their sound. I would have rather a pair of each of his speakers but something tells me that might have been expensive. Especially because my cousin would have needed some too and that would start a war at home or just a divorce!
If you ever wind up in Brooklyn let Roman know that you will stop by! You will truly enjoy yourself and learn a few things. Just bring the Pizza with you cause delivery took long enough for us all to lose some weight!
Regards//Keith
Thank you for good opinion Keith.
First of all I have to agree that pizza took well over an hour to be delivered and it's simply unacceptable!
I'll name this babies RE MKI.
Let me explain my opinion on your ProAcs.
Lately I see more and more commercialism and money saving shortcuts not only in speaker manufacturers but generally in electronics. Then I saw your ProAcs, I saw a 1-inch port, that technically should have been noisy (but it wasn't). I saw v-grooved miter folded cabinet and I picked through the port hole to see the foam. So, I thought to myself: “man this is not going to be fun”
I was pleasantly surprised by the sound. We played your ProAcs LOUD and they sounded very good. The only problem that I heard was the box itself. Then you are listening to a well braced and dampened speaker, the cabinet itself is not apparent. Unfortunately, I have heard a little of the thumpy noise that I know very well. I think this problem is easily remedied by changing egg crate foam to either Whisper Matt or Black Hole. I would expect that a bit of Polifill or natural cotton staffing would cancel standing waves even more, there for, increasing lower midrange clarity and extending bottom end just a tud.
As I listen to more and more speakers (I should say drivers because I stay away from the stores) I am learning to adjust my expectation.
The tweeter in Studios looked like one of the Seas Prestige line tweeters(TDFC or something similar). I have seen it used in a 6k commercial loudspeakers so you have nothing to fill bad about. I just don't think Hiquphone is in the same weight category, it is also an expensive tweeter. I do understand that price-quality relationship is not a straight line and I understand the law of diminishing returns. However the biggest difference in this 3 pairs of speakers was in the tweeters.
I have also noticed that my little boys were reproducing details that just weren't there on the clones or Studios. Pick on the string, spit in the trumpets mouth piece, windings on the cello strings. Somehow, with Hiquphone it was very apparent and not muffled. It is brutal on the bad CDs. It will make your ears bleed. On the great recording it will take you all the way up there. The more I listed, the more I like it.
All 3 pairs of speakers were ported cabinets. I thought they all had slightly muffled base. Clones to less of the extend but I've used 3” flared ports in the clones, so may be that's why. Clones were also deepest down.
I have to agree with your observation of the sound stage reproduction. Purely technical guys are probably shrugging now but hey I don't know how to describe it. My be it has to do with combine of axis response of the drivers. It's just a general observation. Clones were bigger then room.
If I didn't build speakers myself, I could easily live with either one of them. It is however never ending process and if I could make another pair that's just a hair better, I will, and guess what I am going to do next.
First of all I have to agree that pizza took well over an hour to be delivered and it's simply unacceptable!
I'll name this babies RE MKI.
Let me explain my opinion on your ProAcs.
Lately I see more and more commercialism and money saving shortcuts not only in speaker manufacturers but generally in electronics. Then I saw your ProAcs, I saw a 1-inch port, that technically should have been noisy (but it wasn't). I saw v-grooved miter folded cabinet and I picked through the port hole to see the foam. So, I thought to myself: “man this is not going to be fun”
I was pleasantly surprised by the sound. We played your ProAcs LOUD and they sounded very good. The only problem that I heard was the box itself. Then you are listening to a well braced and dampened speaker, the cabinet itself is not apparent. Unfortunately, I have heard a little of the thumpy noise that I know very well. I think this problem is easily remedied by changing egg crate foam to either Whisper Matt or Black Hole. I would expect that a bit of Polifill or natural cotton staffing would cancel standing waves even more, there for, increasing lower midrange clarity and extending bottom end just a tud.
As I listen to more and more speakers (I should say drivers because I stay away from the stores) I am learning to adjust my expectation.
The tweeter in Studios looked like one of the Seas Prestige line tweeters(TDFC or something similar). I have seen it used in a 6k commercial loudspeakers so you have nothing to fill bad about. I just don't think Hiquphone is in the same weight category, it is also an expensive tweeter. I do understand that price-quality relationship is not a straight line and I understand the law of diminishing returns. However the biggest difference in this 3 pairs of speakers was in the tweeters.
I have also noticed that my little boys were reproducing details that just weren't there on the clones or Studios. Pick on the string, spit in the trumpets mouth piece, windings on the cello strings. Somehow, with Hiquphone it was very apparent and not muffled. It is brutal on the bad CDs. It will make your ears bleed. On the great recording it will take you all the way up there. The more I listed, the more I like it.
All 3 pairs of speakers were ported cabinets. I thought they all had slightly muffled base. Clones to less of the extend but I've used 3” flared ports in the clones, so may be that's why. Clones were also deepest down.
I have to agree with your observation of the sound stage reproduction. Purely technical guys are probably shrugging now but hey I don't know how to describe it. My be it has to do with combine of axis response of the drivers. It's just a general observation. Clones were bigger then room.
If I didn't build speakers myself, I could easily live with either one of them. It is however never ending process and if I could make another pair that's just a hair better, I will, and guess what I am going to do next.
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