PHL / ESg 3 way question - AR2
How is your three way project coming along ?.
Any recent photos ?.
As I mentioned in an earlier thread, I have the PHL 1340 / ESg2 kit from e-speakers.com
After running them continuously for a couple weeks, I can say they are truly awesome for a little 2 way.
I have been thinking about something larger and was thinking about something similar to yours. Any comments ?. good or bad ?.
I got many emails about my system, and here is the summed answer.
Unfortunately, I haven't finished veneering yet. Acctually didn't even start yet. I have been taken away with my job, and as well as with some amps work. After listening tests I decided to try more power for the Lambdas.
I also took some time to do some listening first, so if I need to do some adjustments I still have a chance. Talking about the sound, I am in love with it. It is quite different than anything I had so far, and it gives great award for all the time I put into. Yet there are a few points that are specific to this project and they might ot might not work for somebody:
? I built this system so it works well with my low powered 2A3 amps. Tweeter and mid are 100 and 101dB sensitive, but on the other side - Lambda in the sealed enclosure is very insensitive - 87dB out of box, and in the box even less. That makes 13dB difference or in amp Watts about 265W of difference. In my system I have active crossover which crosses bass cabinets at 225Hz and I run them with 300W tube monoblocks. After listening tests, I have feeling that I could pump even more power into it, and wouldn't hurt.
? On the other side PHL and Esq3 are just magical and they sound so good. With my amps, I could hear every single note, and with some beautifull authority. PHL is awsome mid, and ribbon_ is all that you hear about. Yet I have to say, every speaker is some sort of compromise, and you always get some and you lose some. In this case ribbon is incredibly directional. It's vertical dispersion is minimal, and they have to be at the listening level. In my case they are at 54" and ideally they should be at 34" from the ground. The difference is huge. So I decided to put the tweeter box on the rear spikes, so I could tilt it down. This doesn't bothering me. I have been listening last few years my bipolar speakers that are quite oposite in dispersion to this new speakers, and I am now little tired with that sound. Now I would like to have this pinpoint imaging and I got it.
Branwell, please let me know if you have a same experience requarding the tweeter.
It is too early to say that I am not happy with Lambda in my sealed cabinet, especially that all my tests are done in 5000 Sq.ft warehouse - shop. I made the decision to assemble jig so I could do some measurement and post them here for analysys.
I hope that I answered all your questions, but let me know if I could be of any more help to you.
Dispersion: My listening room is small, i.e. about 14 by 19, so vertical dispersion is important to a uniform sound while walking around. With the 6.5 PHL and the Esg2, the vertical dispersion is a little limited, but not enough that it bothers me.
Your comments about the Lambda bass drivers are interesting.
What I am planning as far as a three way goes is to use the Esg1 with either the PHL 6.5 midrange or the 8 midrange. This would be crossed over to a PHL 15 bass driver.
The PHL 15 bass drivers are very interesting. Many people think that because they dont go low, i.e. 20hz or lower, that they are not worth using.
Here are some things to consider.
1) The 15 PHL drivers are between 97 and 99db efficient depending on what driver you pick. This means you can get serious authority out of them with out having a kilowatt amplifier.
2) The Drivers will play into the low 40hz range and do it from a 65 liter box.
While a 6.5 driver that can only play into the 40hz range tends to sound wimpy, a 15 driver in the 40hz range sounds awesome. Feel it in your chest type thing.
3) The drivers do not require large boxes.
All that said, I have no personal experience with the PHL 15 so the above is more theory then anything else, but if you are not happy with the Lambda, the PHL might be worth considering.
Getting back to dispersion, what is the crossover frequency of the mid to tweeter and what filer slopes are you using ?.
I was just on the phone with Andre talking about a three way for me.
Looks like I am going to use the Esg2 tweeters I have now, get some PHL1660 for the mid, and for the bass, either a PHL 15 or something that might interest you. Apparently PHL have a new 12 bass driver that is 94db efficient and goes much lower then the other PHL bass drivers. Might just be the driver you are looking for.
Here is a photo of how the 2 way ESg2 / PHL 1340 worked out.
Please do not take my comments about Lambda's in too negative way. I must finish my speakers first, bring them home, and really see how is everything. Lambda's are nice sound wise, and I think that smarter approach for me will be to put them in some kind of a ported design. So far in a sealed box they do need a considerable amount of power. Based on mid driver, PHL is a way to go. If they are coming out with 12" bass driver with high sensitivity, I would be excited to see it for sure.
I do agree with you on a tweeter dispersion issue. I do not need to walk around and have the same coverage, and I am fine with what it is. I posted this comment as expirience for someone not familiar with this driver, but curious about. My strong recomendation, but with this "limitation"
On the bass driver, I like - the bigger is better. 15" must be awsome. For sure, less difference in sensitivity - less trouble.
Please keep me posted on the developments.
PS My email addres is enabled
Canno't wait to leave the shop with mine project.
These systems you refer to, Esg +
PHL, would mate well with the
Lambda TD series woofers, either the
TD12 or TD15 variant. TD15X for
example is 94.8 db sensitivity
(8ohm), 98db sensitivity (4 ohm),
xmax = 10mm linear.
I'm my case, I'm using TD15H, the
lowest Q version. I tried sealed and
ported boxes. I tried various tuning
frequencies. The Lambda sounds
excellent in a ported box tuned
to 35hz or lower with rear firing ports.
If you drive your PHL midrange
high pass 300hz - 400hz, I prefer
the sonics of the PHL 1120 a little
better than the PHL 1660. This of
course is based on weeks of auditioning. The PHL 1660 seems to
be a more rugged midrange, designed
to take more abuse, perhaps if you
want to drive 500w. hehe!
If you were going to run Esg1,
then I would consider the PHL 2520
as a mate or the 10" PHL midrange.
Esg, Raven, SLS, or SA tweeters +
PHL midranges + Lamdba TD woofers
= I can't think of anything better, I've
been looking for 2 years.
If you know something better, let
I didn't answer your question in my first reply.
Lambda SB12 is crossed at 225Hz, at 24dB sloped; PHL 3451 and Esg3 are crossed at 2000Hz, at 12 dB sloped. I use active crossover for low pass, and pasive between PHL and Esg3.
I've been curious about ribbon tweeters for some time and wonder if you would you be so kind as to further describe the dispersion of the EGS ribbon tweeter. From what I understand (and you seem to confirm) they have very limited vertical dispersion, but have wide horizontal dispersion. Can you provide a little more detail in this area for me? I'm very interested in these tweeters for use in a project, but I have several reservations about them in comparison to a more traditional dome tweeter due to the vertical dispersion.
How wide and deep is the soundstage? What happens if I move the speakers (or myself) up and down by 6 inches? By 12 inches?
Thanks for your help!
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