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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

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Old 4th March 2003, 06:23 AM   #11
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It boils down to listening habits.
If your system is designed so the tweeter
is "aimed" at your head at your
desired listening position, the sonics
are sweet. (lol), otherwise
you lose the sweet spot, but
life is not over.

My original plan was to design
an MTM with a ribbon similar
to Esg plus a bass subsystem.
It was going to be two seperate
cabinets where the MTM "tilts"
and "swivels" so you can position
the MTM for optimal listening position.

I abandoned this project in favor
of something more aggressive,
a mini-line array of ribbons.

Even a line array of those cheap
$25 Hi-Vi ribbons (eight per channel)
isn't bad. Very insteresting sonic
signatures when arrayed.
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Old 4th March 2003, 11:52 AM   #12
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Eric,

Sound stage width, focus and depth are a lot to do with detail and phase and not driver dimensions and dispersion.

Dispersion ( vertical, horizontal ) vs frequency response is what is effected by the physical dimensions of the driver.

Ribbons tend to be narrow and long giving them very wide dispersion but limited vertical dispersion. Again because of dimensions, shorter ribbons will have better vertical dispersion then longer ribbons, i.e. an Esg2 will have better vertical dispersion then the Esg1.

That said, yes, a dome will have a more even dispersion on the vertical plane at high frequencies, but remember, all you are talking about here is relatively high frequencies.
The change in sound is more akin to lacking air and a dulling of the sound.

I have found that the midrange tends to be more of a problem in vertical dispersion and is related to the mid drivers dimensions, the crossover point and phase character of the system through the crossover region.

Your question regarding sound and moving 6 to 12 inches. It realy depends how close you are to the speaker.
If you are 15 feet away, it will not make much difference at all. If you are 4 feet away, it will make a big diference.

Branwell
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Old 4th March 2003, 02:05 PM   #13
Eric is offline Eric  United States
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Thanks for your replies! I was unaware of the length of the ribbon vs. dispersion tradeoff. I have a growing interest in building a very high quality set of 2-way or 3-way speakers and have been waffling between dome tweeters and ribbon tweeters.

Thanks for your insights!
Eric
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Old 4th March 2003, 09:46 PM   #14
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--I have a growing interest in building a very high quality set of
--2-way or 3-way speakers and have been waffling between
--dome tweeters and ribbon tweeters.

Perhaps categorized different concepts to aid
in system planning.

Aside from a bookshelf 2 way or traditional
3 way, perhaps something like this;

Mainstream 2 way design, MTM or TMM plus sub;
Typically dome tweeters and some good
midrange drivers capable of extending down to say
80hz. Then throw in a seperate subwoofer.

Exotic MTM or TMM design (2 way, plus bass subsystem)
Typically a design with high sensitivty ribbons plus high
sensitivity midrange drivers, perhaps PHL or some
Focals. Problem is, the midranges will probably
be crossed over around 200 - 300hz, therefore
you must also design some type of bass subsystem
for low pass 200 - 300hz.

Exotic 3 way design;
Same concept as the Exotic MTM design, except it goes
something like this; ribbon+PHL mid+Lambda TD woofer.

Line array;
The Linus Array is a good example of a cost
effective high output system.

Exotic Line array;
Newform ribbon + Seas Excel drivers
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Old 5th March 2003, 03:31 PM   #15
Eric is offline Eric  United States
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That list of options is exactly where I have been thinking! I'm in the process now of building a small two way system with a dome tweeter and figured this one would serve as a learning piece. My next system I am interested in trying something more exotic. The ribbon tweeter and a PHL or Focal mid with a separate or integrated sub is something that sound interesting. But if the mid only goes down to 200-300 Hz, integrating a sub can be tricky due to localizability of the frequencies...

I'll probably continue to mull this over for a while- but I do appreciate you input!

Thanks!
Eric
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Old 5th March 2003, 05:04 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by Eric
That list of options is exactly where I have been thinking! I'm in the process now of building a small two way system with a dome tweeter and figured this one would serve as a learning piece. My next system I am interested in trying something more exotic. The ribbon tweeter and a PHL or Focal mid with a separate or integrated sub is something that sound interesting. But if the mid only goes down to 200-300 Hz, integrating a sub can be tricky due to localizability of the frequencies...

I'll probably continue to mull this over for a while- but I do appreciate you input!

Thanks!
Eric
You should talk to Andre at www.e-speakers.com
for insight into the "ribbon" +"PHL or Focal" system,
he has good experience with these combos. For me,
I prefer the PHL 1120 6.5" midrange over the Focals.
The high sensitivity nature of the system allows for
some very clean high impact sonics with moderate
amplification. The tradeoff is low pass 200-300hz.
I've stratched my head from months trying to find
a solution. Lambda TD12 or TD15 is the perfect mate.
I waded thru spec sheets and can't find another woofer
that has high sensitivity, 10mm xmax and the most
important part, great sonics. The sonics of the TD's
is what sells the woofer. The sonics are most noticable
when you test the woofer full range, incredible midrange
from these woofers (and bass of course). As you low pass
this woofer, the less unique it becomes sonically. What
I mean is, if you low passed the TD at 60hz, you wouldn't
hear any big sonic advantange as opposed to any
other good woofer. But as you raise the crossover frequency,
the other woofers start sounding bad, hence not recommended
for higher crossover frequencies. Since the TD sounds awesome
full range, asking this woofer to low pass 300hz still retains
the nice sonics. Nick told me that the TD15 is just a little
better sounding than the TD12, but the TD10 is not
as good as the 12 or 15 sonically full range.

In your case, a ribbon + phl midrange + TD12 (or TD15) would be
sweet in the same cabinet. You can either port or seal
the TD12 depending on personal tastes. I've tried my
TD15 in sealed, ported, tuned to frequencies from 35hz-55hz
to hear the sonics. I plan to port to 35hz due to space
limitations and sonically, it works well. Then, to augment
the system, I will add another dedicated subwoofer
with variable crossover, perhaps 40hz - 60hz and position
the sub in the room where it "works". hehe

Essentially, a 3 way cabinet, plus subwoofer, technically
4 way. lol

It's not recomended to integrate the sub duty into the main
cabinets. Technically, I consider the TD woofers to be
"bass", "midbass", and "midrange" all in one driver.
Bass guitar, drumming, vocals all sound great coming
out of this woofer. While the 10mm xmax is healthy
and provides really good low end if you port it, I don't
plan to over-drive or boost the low frequencies on the TD's woofers, the reason is this. The high cone excursion by
"Eq boosting" the low end will cause the delicate upper
frequencies to modulate, but this happens at high
power levels. I'd rather let the dedicated subwoofer
do the "sub duty" as in low frequency rumble from
watching a movie with explosions, and let the TD perform
the "bass guitar" type of bass duty.

If you want more details;

Ribbon -> Esg series, Raven series, SA8535, SLS
Midrange -> PHL 1120, PHL 1660, PHL 2520, PHL 3450 (or 3451).
Bass woofer -> Lambda TD12 or TD15 variant.

I can't find anything better than this.

Notes:

1. SA8535 is what I'm using, an isodynamic planar
from http://www.stageaccompany.com/cdload.html $600 ea.

2. PHL 1120 to me, is the best sounding midrange I can
find, slightly better than PHL 1660 and Focal 7K2 midrange,
far superior to Focal 6WM.

3. I chose PHL2520 midrange only because I'm doing
a crazy design with 11 drivers per cabinet, and it mates
well with my SA planar.

4. For 2 way design plus sub *and* large listening room,
the PHL 3450 (3451) midrange *or* TD12 would be tasty
to mate with some ribbon above.

5. SLS doesn't sell to DIY <arg!>, but their planar is
said to have been designed by the same engineer
whom developed the SA planar or previous.
http://www.slsloudspeakers.com/prd1000.html

6. Save your cash for the ultimate system, design once,
build once. Don't built 5 - 10 systems before you get
the hang of it. LOL research pays, and be patient.

7. If money allows, running a fully active crossover system
would be the ultimate. One amplification channnel per
driver and no passive crossovers between the amplifier
and speaker. Get one centralized active crossover with
selectable frequency "knobs" and level controls. Life
just doesn't get any better when you can tweak your
system in real time while listening to your favorite music.
There is no substitute for what your ears tell you, ie,
even though the SA planar tweeter is designed to
run at 1.2khz crossover (12db slope) and it does
sound good, I just prefer the sonics better at 2kz - 2.5khz.
The adjustable crossover pays for itself, you keep your
sanity as you can dial in your system in a matter of minutes
vs. going crazy for months messing with passive crossovers
trying to find the sweet spot.

8. Lambda TD variants include, "H", "S", "X", each
has a slightly different "Q" value. There is a "M" version,
low xmax midrange only driver. So, you can get
TD12X, TD12H, TD12S, I chose "H" for low "Q" for my design.
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Old 5th March 2003, 06:07 PM   #17
Eric is offline Eric  United States
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Wow! Thanks for all of the information! I hadn't considered the Lambda drivers-they look very interesting...

The Esg, PHL, and Lambda combination looks like it could be a real winner. The next trick is crossover design- something that I understand can be an enormous pit of both time and money. I'm not sure that I'm interested in active crossovers just yet!

Thanks again!
Eric
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Old 5th March 2003, 06:17 PM   #18
JohnR is offline JohnR  Australia
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Quote:
There is a "M" version,
low xmax midrange only driver.
In a sealed box it has an F3 of around 80 Hz... ported it will obviously go lower... I'm not sure that's really a midrange driver :-)

I'm kinda hoping someone publishes a nice crossover for the PHL 1120 and an ESG ribbon.

JohnR
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Old 5th March 2003, 06:18 PM   #19
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Andre can hook you up with some good passive crossovers
for the tweeter/midrange combo. This region is more delicate
sonically so if your are not sure what to do, have him do it
because he's experienced with these units.
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Old 5th March 2003, 06:20 PM   #20
JohnR is offline JohnR  Australia
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I hear so... but I've never seen any such crossover published or anyone say they used one - ?
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