PHL / ESg 3 way question - AR2

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AR,

How is your three way project coming along ?.
Any recent photos ?.

As I mentioned in an earlier thread, I have the PHL 1340 / ESg2 kit from e-speakers.com
After running them continuously for a couple weeks, I can say they are truly awesome for a little 2 way.

I have been thinking about something larger and was thinking about something similar to yours. Any comments ?. good or bad ?.

Branwell
 
Hello,
I got many emails about my system, and here is the summed answer.
Unfortunately, I haven't finished veneering yet. Acctually didn't even start yet. I have been taken away with my job, and as well as with some amps work. After listening tests I decided to try more power for the Lambdas.
I also took some time to do some listening first, so if I need to do some adjustments I still have a chance. Talking about the sound, I am in love with it. It is quite different than anything I had so far, and it gives great award for all the time I put into. Yet there are a few points that are specific to this project and they might ot might not work for somebody:
? I built this system so it works well with my low powered 2A3 amps. Tweeter and mid are 100 and 101dB sensitive, but on the other side - Lambda in the sealed enclosure is very insensitive - 87dB out of box, and in the box even less. That makes 13dB difference or in amp Watts about 265W of difference. In my system I have active crossover which crosses bass cabinets at 225Hz and I run them with 300W tube monoblocks. After listening tests, I have feeling that I could pump even more power into it, and wouldn't hurt.
? On the other side PHL and Esq3 are just magical and they sound so good. With my amps, I could hear every single note, and with some beautifull authority. PHL is awsome mid, and ribbon_ is all that you hear about. Yet I have to say, every speaker is some sort of compromise, and you always get some and you lose some. In this case ribbon is incredibly directional. It's vertical dispersion is minimal, and they have to be at the listening level. In my case they are at 54" and ideally they should be at 34" from the ground. The difference is huge. So I decided to put the tweeter box on the rear spikes, so I could tilt it down. This doesn't bothering me. I have been listening last few years my bipolar speakers that are quite oposite in dispersion to this new speakers, and I am now little tired with that sound. Now I would like to have this pinpoint imaging and I got it.
Branwell, please let me know if you have a same experience requarding the tweeter.
It is too early to say that I am not happy with Lambda in my sealed cabinet, especially that all my tests are done in 5000 Sq.ft warehouse - shop. I made the decision to assemble jig so I could do some measurement and post them here for analysys.
I hope that I answered all your questions, but let me know if I could be of any more help to you.

Stay well
 
AR2,

Dispersion: My listening room is small, i.e. about 14 by 19, so vertical dispersion is important to a uniform sound while walking around. With the 6.5” PHL and the Esg2, the vertical dispersion is a little limited, but not enough that it bothers me.

Your comments about the Lambda bass drivers are interesting.

What I am planning as far as a three way goes is to use the Esg1 with either the PHL 6.5” midrange or the 8” midrange. This would be crossed over to a PHL 15” bass driver.

The PHL 15” bass drivers are very interesting. Many people think that because they don’t go low, i.e. 20hz or lower, that they are not worth using.

Here are some things to consider.
1) The 15” PHL drivers are between 97 and 99db efficient depending on what driver you pick. This means you can get serious authority out of them with out having a kilowatt amplifier.

2) The Drivers will play into the low 40hz range and do it from a 65 liter box.
While a 6.5” driver that can only play into the 40hz range tends to sound wimpy, a 15” driver in the 40hz range sounds awesome. Feel it in your chest type thing.

3) The drivers do not require large boxes.

All that said, I have no personal experience with the PHL 15” so the above is more theory then anything else, but if you are not happy with the Lambda, the PHL might be worth considering.

Getting back to dispersion, what is the crossover frequency of the mid to tweeter and what filer slopes are you using ?.

Branwell
 
AR2,

I was just on the phone with Andre talking about a three way for me.

Looks like I am going to use the Esg2 tweeters I have now, get some PHL1660 for the mid, and for the bass, either a PHL 15 or something that might interest you. Apparently PHL have a new 12” bass driver that is 94db efficient and goes much lower then the other PHL bass drivers. Might just be the driver you are looking for.

Branwell
 
AR2,

Here is a photo of how the 2 way ESg2 / PHL 1340 worked out.


Branwell
 

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Please do not take my comments about Lambda's in too negative way. I must finish my speakers first, bring them home, and really see how is everything. Lambda's are nice sound wise, and I think that smarter approach for me will be to put them in some kind of a ported design. So far in a sealed box they do need a considerable amount of power. Based on mid driver, PHL is a way to go. If they are coming out with 12" bass driver with high sensitivity, I would be excited to see it for sure.
I do agree with you on a tweeter dispersion issue. I do not need to walk around and have the same coverage, and I am fine with what it is. I posted this comment as expirience for someone not familiar with this driver, but curious about. My strong recomendation, but with this "limitation"
On the bass driver, I like - the bigger is better. 15" must be awsome. For sure, less difference in sensitivity - less trouble.
Please keep me posted on the developments.
PS My email addres is enabled
 
These systems you refer to, Esg +
PHL, would mate well with the
Lambda TD series woofers, either the
TD12 or TD15 variant. TD15X for
example is 94.8 db sensitivity
(8ohm), 98db sensitivity (4 ohm),
xmax = 10mm linear.

http://www.lambdacoustics.com/drivers/TDdrivers.html

I'm my case, I'm using TD15H, the
lowest Q version. I tried sealed and
ported boxes. I tried various tuning
frequencies. The Lambda sounds
excellent in a ported box tuned
to 35hz or lower with rear firing ports.

If you drive your PHL midrange
high pass 300hz - 400hz, I prefer
the sonics of the PHL 1120 a little
better than the PHL 1660. This of
course is based on weeks of auditioning. The PHL 1660 seems to
be a more rugged midrange, designed
to take more abuse, perhaps if you
want to drive 500w. hehe!

If you were going to run Esg1,
then I would consider the PHL 2520
as a mate or the 10" PHL midrange.

Esg, Raven, SLS, or SA tweeters +
PHL midranges + Lamdba TD woofers
= I can't think of anything better, I've
been looking for 2 years.

If you know something better, let
me know.
 
Hi folks,
I've been curious about ribbon tweeters for some time and wonder if you would you be so kind as to further describe the dispersion of the EGS ribbon tweeter. From what I understand (and you seem to confirm) they have very limited vertical dispersion, but have wide horizontal dispersion. Can you provide a little more detail in this area for me? I'm very interested in these tweeters for use in a project, but I have several reservations about them in comparison to a more traditional dome tweeter due to the vertical dispersion.

How wide and deep is the soundstage? What happens if I move the speakers (or myself) up and down by 6 inches? By 12 inches?

Thanks for your help!
Eric
 
It boils down to listening habits.
If your system is designed so the tweeter
is "aimed" at your head at your
desired listening position, the sonics
are sweet. (lol), otherwise
you lose the sweet spot, but
life is not over.

My original plan was to design
an MTM with a ribbon similar
to Esg plus a bass subsystem.
It was going to be two seperate
cabinets where the MTM "tilts"
and "swivels" so you can position
the MTM for optimal listening position.

I abandoned this project in favor
of something more aggressive,
a mini-line array of ribbons.

Even a line array of those cheap
$25 Hi-Vi ribbons (eight per channel)
isn't bad. Very insteresting sonic
signatures when arrayed.
 
Eric,

Sound stage width, focus and depth are a lot to do with detail and phase and not driver dimensions and dispersion.

Dispersion ( vertical, horizontal ) vs frequency response is what is effected by the physical dimensions of the driver.

Ribbons tend to be narrow and long giving them very wide dispersion but limited vertical dispersion. Again because of dimensions, shorter ribbons will have better vertical dispersion then longer ribbons, i.e. an Esg2 will have better vertical dispersion then the Esg1.

That said, yes, a dome will have a more even dispersion on the vertical plane at high frequencies, but remember, all you are talking about here is relatively high frequencies.
The change in sound is more akin to lacking air and a dulling of the sound.

I have found that the midrange tends to be more of a problem in vertical dispersion and is related to the mid drivers dimensions, the crossover point and phase character of the system through the crossover region.

Your question regarding sound and moving 6” to 12” inches. It realy depends how close you are to the speaker.
If you are 15 feet away, it will not make much difference at all. If you are 4 feet away, it will make a big diference.

Branwell
 
--I have a growing interest in building a very high quality set of
--2-way or 3-way speakers and have been waffling between
--dome tweeters and ribbon tweeters.

Perhaps categorized different concepts to aid
in system planning.

Aside from a bookshelf 2 way or traditional
3 way, perhaps something like this;

Mainstream 2 way design, MTM or TMM plus sub;
Typically dome tweeters and some good
midrange drivers capable of extending down to say
80hz. Then throw in a seperate subwoofer.

Exotic MTM or TMM design (2 way, plus bass subsystem)
Typically a design with high sensitivty ribbons plus high
sensitivity midrange drivers, perhaps PHL or some
Focals. Problem is, the midranges will probably
be crossed over around 200 - 300hz, therefore
you must also design some type of bass subsystem
for low pass 200 - 300hz.

Exotic 3 way design;
Same concept as the Exotic MTM design, except it goes
something like this; ribbon+PHL mid+Lambda TD woofer.

Line array;
The Linus Array is a good example of a cost
effective high output system.

Exotic Line array;
Newform ribbon + Seas Excel drivers
 
That list of options is exactly where I have been thinking! I'm in the process now of building a small two way system with a dome tweeter and figured this one would serve as a learning piece. My next system I am interested in trying something more exotic. The ribbon tweeter and a PHL or Focal mid with a separate or integrated sub is something that sound interesting. But if the mid only goes down to 200-300 Hz, integrating a sub can be tricky due to localizability of the frequencies...

I'll probably continue to mull this over for a while- but I do appreciate you input!

Thanks!
Eric
 
Eric said:
That list of options is exactly where I have been thinking! I'm in the process now of building a small two way system with a dome tweeter and figured this one would serve as a learning piece. My next system I am interested in trying something more exotic. The ribbon tweeter and a PHL or Focal mid with a separate or integrated sub is something that sound interesting. But if the mid only goes down to 200-300 Hz, integrating a sub can be tricky due to localizability of the frequencies...

I'll probably continue to mull this over for a while- but I do appreciate you input!

Thanks!
Eric

You should talk to Andre at www.e-speakers.com
for insight into the "ribbon" +"PHL or Focal" system,
he has good experience with these combos. For me,
I prefer the PHL 1120 6.5" midrange over the Focals.
The high sensitivity nature of the system allows for
some very clean high impact sonics with moderate
amplification. The tradeoff is low pass 200-300hz.
I've stratched my head from months trying to find
a solution. Lambda TD12 or TD15 is the perfect mate.
I waded thru spec sheets and can't find another woofer
that has high sensitivity, 10mm xmax and the most
important part, great sonics. The sonics of the TD's
is what sells the woofer. The sonics are most noticable
when you test the woofer full range, incredible midrange
from these woofers (and bass of course). As you low pass
this woofer, the less unique it becomes sonically. What
I mean is, if you low passed the TD at 60hz, you wouldn't
hear any big sonic advantange as opposed to any
other good woofer. But as you raise the crossover frequency,
the other woofers start sounding bad, hence not recommended
for higher crossover frequencies. Since the TD sounds awesome
full range, asking this woofer to low pass 300hz still retains
the nice sonics. Nick told me that the TD15 is just a little
better sounding than the TD12, but the TD10 is not
as good as the 12 or 15 sonically full range.

In your case, a ribbon + phl midrange + TD12 (or TD15) would be
sweet in the same cabinet. You can either port or seal
the TD12 depending on personal tastes. I've tried my
TD15 in sealed, ported, tuned to frequencies from 35hz-55hz
to hear the sonics. I plan to port to 35hz due to space
limitations and sonically, it works well. Then, to augment
the system, I will add another dedicated subwoofer
with variable crossover, perhaps 40hz - 60hz and position
the sub in the room where it "works". hehe

Essentially, a 3 way cabinet, plus subwoofer, technically
4 way. lol

It's not recomended to integrate the sub duty into the main
cabinets. Technically, I consider the TD woofers to be
"bass", "midbass", and "midrange" all in one driver.
Bass guitar, drumming, vocals all sound great coming
out of this woofer. While the 10mm xmax is healthy
and provides really good low end if you port it, I don't
plan to over-drive or boost the low frequencies on the TD's woofers, the reason is this. The high cone excursion by
"Eq boosting" the low end will cause the delicate upper
frequencies to modulate, but this happens at high
power levels. I'd rather let the dedicated subwoofer
do the "sub duty" as in low frequency rumble from
watching a movie with explosions, and let the TD perform
the "bass guitar" type of bass duty.

If you want more details;

Ribbon -> Esg series, Raven series, SA8535, SLS
Midrange -> PHL 1120, PHL 1660, PHL 2520, PHL 3450 (or 3451).
Bass woofer -> Lambda TD12 or TD15 variant.

I can't find anything better than this.

Notes:

1. SA8535 is what I'm using, an isodynamic planar
from http://www.stageaccompany.com/cdload.html $600 ea.

2. PHL 1120 to me, is the best sounding midrange I can
find, slightly better than PHL 1660 and Focal 7K2 midrange,
far superior to Focal 6WM.

3. I chose PHL2520 midrange only because I'm doing
a crazy design with 11 drivers per cabinet, and it mates
well with my SA planar.

4. For 2 way design plus sub *and* large listening room,
the PHL 3450 (3451) midrange *or* TD12 would be tasty
to mate with some ribbon above.

5. SLS doesn't sell to DIY <arg!>, but their planar is
said to have been designed by the same engineer
whom developed the SA planar or previous.
http://www.slsloudspeakers.com/prd1000.html

6. Save your cash for the ultimate system, design once,
build once. Don't built 5 - 10 systems before you get
the hang of it. LOL research pays, and be patient.

7. If money allows, running a fully active crossover system
would be the ultimate. One amplification channnel per
driver and no passive crossovers between the amplifier
and speaker. Get one centralized active crossover with
selectable frequency "knobs" and level controls. Life
just doesn't get any better when you can tweak your
system in real time while listening to your favorite music.
There is no substitute for what your ears tell you, ie,
even though the SA planar tweeter is designed to
run at 1.2khz crossover (12db slope) and it does
sound good, I just prefer the sonics better at 2kz - 2.5khz.
The adjustable crossover pays for itself, you keep your
sanity as you can dial in your system in a matter of minutes
vs. going crazy for months messing with passive crossovers
trying to find the sweet spot.

8. Lambda TD variants include, "H", "S", "X", each
has a slightly different "Q" value. There is a "M" version,
low xmax midrange only driver. So, you can get
TD12X, TD12H, TD12S, I chose "H" for low "Q" for my design.
 
Wow! Thanks for all of the information! I hadn't considered the Lambda drivers-they look very interesting...

The Esg, PHL, and Lambda combination looks like it could be a real winner. The next trick is crossover design- something that I understand can be an enormous pit of both time and money. I'm not sure that I'm interested in active crossovers just yet!

Thanks again!
Eric
 
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