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Old 25th February 2008, 09:20 AM   #1
Bluto is offline Bluto  United States
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Default Maths ....???

57 years old - 1964 9th Grade General Math 1 & 2 educated. I simply found Math a drag, had my 2 credits needed, no need to pursue this I said. Avoided it in College too.

I'm at this over a year. I'd like to know ....

From Theil & Small, Linkwitz - Riley, Nelson Pass, MLK and all others respected ...... what are we actually dealing with here regards all the formulas? A little bit of Algebra, primarily Geometry, Trigonometry, Calculus, all mentioned and then some?

My kids are in their early 30's, I have no idea what the Public School Systems teach kids these days - how long have Schools been teaching Math's applicable to Audio Theory to at least make most of it understandable? Is at least some of this College level or are kids actually learning this stuff in High Schools?

Can't recall which member quotes Einstein - " Any fool can know - it's to Understand"

Not a statement, not a joke, I'd really like to know.

Bluto .. AKA 'Fool'
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Old 25th February 2008, 10:44 AM   #2
MJK is offline MJK  United States
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Default Re: Maths ....???

Quote:
Originally posted by Bluto
...... what are we actually dealing with here regards all the formulas? A little bit of Algebra, primarily Geometry, Trigonometry, Calculus, all mentioned and then some?
All of the above and a little more applied physics.

Quote:
Originally posted by Bluto
My kids are in their early 30's, I have no idea what the Public School Systems teach kids these days - how long have Schools been teaching Math's applicable to Audio Theory to at least make most of it understandable? Is at least some of this College level or are kids actually learning this stuff in High Schools?
My oldest is in his second year of high school. I have him tracked, and will have the younger two tracked, to get Calculus and Physics in high school. That will help if they decide to pursue a technical career. But audio theory and the physics and math behind it are college level courses if you really want to derive, understand, and manipulate the equations.

That is not saying you need to take it in college to have a chance with more in depth speaker theory. I am completely self taught about speakers but I had the required engineering/physics/math courses in college 30 years ago. Now if I could only remember the courses a little better it would really help.
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Old 25th February 2008, 11:23 AM   #3
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I agree with MJK, it takes a little bit of all.

Then way the schools teach math is a drag, I had calc in high school and then never went beyound. But once I joined the Navy and started doing electronics I learned the why's of why I needed a good background. The eye opener was when I was in a industrial programming class and the instructor showed me how I reduce ten lines of program to one, all math related, those little brackets and goofy lines I always thought looked silly.

I took the kid next door, failing in all subjects, but a good kid. He wanted to build a system for his Blazer. So we built a sub woofer box using the math to calc speaker parameters to the box and tuning it on and off for effects.

He graduated in his upper class, found a use for all that garbage they were trying to teach.............
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Old 26th February 2008, 12:15 AM   #4
Ron E is offline Ron E  United States
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Do you want to know how much education it takes to derive the formulas, or use them? To use the formulas in the Loudspeaker Design Cookbook, I would think high school level math and physics would be enough.

To derive Thiele/Small, that is really graduate level stuff, but a sophomore in (engineering) college should easily be able to muddle through and use their results. The analysis of boxes and crossovers is rather multidisciplinary. You have math, physics, and engineering disciplines like circuits, acoustics.

Then you get into actual construction, that requires skill at making things and an aesthetic sense if you want them to look nice. That's not all book knowledge...
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Old 26th February 2008, 06:49 AM   #5
Bluto is offline Bluto  United States
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Ron E , et al --

'High School Physics and Math'?

Guys .... in 1965 the highest you could take in High School was Geometry!

This is why I asked. I'm amazed at your answers that Calculus and Physics is being taught in High Schools. If such is the case why can't anyone under 35 make change for a buck in retail establishments? Why can't young people solve simple equations I do in my head without grabbing a calculator? Is it the same reason I can't understand the formulas? Did a way to visualize whats happening in the middle get totally lost?

Loudspeaker Design Cookbook is sitting here gathering dust. Near to none of this book is any good for a beginner despite it often being recommended. I can easily understand Dryseals statement . Way back then some instructor trying to convince us to go further in Math showed an Algebraic problem layed out in General Math .... it took near to 4 paragraphs to show the same thing.

I'm having a hard time even finding what each individual symbol means and each individual symbol represents an entire process and that process combined with the next symbol can cause a number of variations to the next and so on. I likely just made what is easy for most of you to understand sound very difficult.

I 'm about to throw in the towel.

100'S of hours on the net trying to find a design for this n that is no longer fun. Wanting to build a speaker of your own design but not being able to understand if it's workable on your own and 'actually' understand so is frustrating. Being in a position you must build others designs is twice as frustrating and even more so when you can't understand the tweeks that may need to be done and even more so the whys? I've always needed to know why. What satisfaction is there when you merely follow commands but don't understand how it all functions? Many I guess are simply happy to own a set of speakers they built. Asking what appear to be
dumb' questions over and over when truth is you're just coming from a place of pure ignorance is humiliating when the ability to begin to comprehend is truthfully beyond you. Why waste others time if you can't make the journey?

Comes a time to be honest with yourself. I had hoped to make this a full time Hobby, perhaps I just build a couple of sets of speaks and take a new perspective on this.

Thanks Guys - I needed to know for myself where I stood.

Bluto
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Old 26th February 2008, 07:16 AM   #6
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Default Re: Re: Maths ....???

Quote:
Originally posted by MJK
Now if I could only remember the courses a little better it would really help.
Oh yes... 30 years of not using the advanced stuff has evaporated all but the generalities of all the stuff i learned getting an honours BSc in math.

Quote:
Originally posted by Bluto
I'm amazed at your answers that Calculus and Physics is being taught in High Schools.
I took both of those in high school in the late 60s, early 70s. (missed a perfect score on the calculus final because of a dumb algebra mistake )

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Old 26th February 2008, 08:25 AM   #7
Andy G is offline Andy G  Australia
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Default Re: Re: Re: Maths ....???

Quote:
Originally posted by planet10


Oh yes... 30 years of not using the advanced stuff has evaporated all but the generalities of all the stuff i learned getting an honours BSc in math.

I took both of those in high school in the late 60s, early 70s. (missed a perfect score on the calculus final because of a dumb algebra mistake )

dave
oh yeah, 30 years , you loose it for sure.

I did a Pure maths degree, finished in 1978. When I took on this Civil Eng degree a few years ago, it was sooooo darn hard to remember half the stuff, and I had been teaching high school maths for most of the time !!!




So... my advice is not to sweat the maths too much, just learn to use the programs written by those have learnt and retained and used the stuff !!
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Old 27th February 2008, 11:09 PM   #8
Ron E is offline Ron E  United States
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bluto
Loudspeaker Design Cookbook is sitting here gathering dust. Near to none of this book is any good for a beginner despite it often being recommended.

I'm having a hard time even finding what each individual symbol means and each individual symbol represents an entire process and that process combined with the next symbol can cause a number of variations to the next and so on.

I 'm about to throw in the towel.
Take a deep breath and relax. Maybe you are trying to learn too much at once. Sometimes you need to focus on how rather than why for a while before the why starts to sink in.

There is nothing in the LDC (that I recall) that extends beyond algebra, at least not that I recall. That's all just "plug and chug" stuff. Most people don't achieve a comfort level with "plug and chug" until they have taken at least a little bit of physics.

Sounds like you need some face time with someone who really knows what they are talking about. Got any local audio clubs?

Failing that, ask questions. We are all here to help. What do you want to know?
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Old 28th February 2008, 12:05 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bluto
Ron E , et al --

'High School Physics and Math'?

Guys .... in 1965 the highest you could take in High School was Geometry!

Bluto
I guess it really depended on what high school you went to. I'm class of '65 and had college level calculus in my senior year, as well as college level physics. Not everyone got it. It depended on the aptitude test results. But it was available for those who were deemed capable.

MJK hit it right on the head though. The background needed depends on what you want to do with it. But I do think to design a speaker with the software out there today can be accomplished by a high school student and a little patience. It's more about understanding the design process/sequence and what does what than how it does it. In other words try to gain an understanding of the concepts rather than the mathematical details. You can get the software to handle the math behind the concepts.
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Old 28th February 2008, 12:34 AM   #10
MJK is offline MJK  United States
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Quote:
Originally posted by john k...
The background needed depends on what you want to do with it. But I do think to design a speaker with the software out there today can be accomplished by a high school student and a little patience. It's more about understanding the design process/sequence and what does what than how it does it. In other words try to gain an understanding of the concepts rather than the mathematical details. You can get the software to handle the math behind the concepts.
Exactly right.

If you stay within the capabilities and assumptions of the program you are using then it can be done without any great math education.

However, if you want to stray off the well traveled path and wander into something different it helps to have the math and physics background or you end up having to using trial and error construction. It can be done both ways, some people have an incredible intuitive feel without the mathematical understanding.

Personally, I like to wander off into the weeds way out in left field and see what I can learn before I get completely lost. But that is just my way, doing the math and writing the code is half the fun. I had a manager when I was a young engineer who once told me that unless you can write a working Fortran program to solve a problem you don't fully understand the solution yet. I have updated that concept to use MathCad over Fortran.
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