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Old 14th February 2008, 04:20 PM   #31
ScottG is offline ScottG  United States
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Quote:
Originally posted by planet10


You could also just skip the crossover and go with a 1-way.

dave
..and just how long does it stay a "1-way"?

Having also gone that route, I can personal say that each time it progressed to something more complex.

AKA - a 1-way presents some excellent qualities, and a LOT of compromises.

I would say though that it is a good place to start as well.. BUT to get it right "down the road" your back where you started with respect to "commitment" to the hobby and dealing with a crossover. Moreover even if it stays a "1-way" you still have multiple issues to deal with that are not related to designing and implementing a crossover.
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Old 14th February 2008, 04:46 PM   #32
Bluto is offline Bluto  United States
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Ceibel -

You say you didn't see anything amongst suggested designs you liked.

You're also asking if you wasted your money by purchasing a woofer tester and are asking which design software you should be purchasing.

I'm not trying to be offensive here, only helpful ......

If your statements are true and questions relate to your degree of understanding what makes you believe that even if you owned software you could design your own crossovers for drivers of your choice?

These guys have electrical engineering backgrounds, understand theory and are computer geniuses in comparison to most of us to boot. It's not a matter of plugging in some equipment and then feeding in your desired box size and TS parameters of drivers 'you think' would sound good and a little ticket popping out of a printer with a statement reading ' you have just designed a loudspeaker that sounds better than high end 5K units available'. There are several 'freeware' programs available that you could try without making an expenditure of any kind . Based upon the questions you ask I'm thinking your attempting to use them might convince you this stuff isn't learned overnight. If you truly understood all you need to understand to navigate these programs I'm certain you'd find you'd be spending a good deal more on equipment alone than the target price of the speakers you want to beat. Start pricing what good software costs and just how many different programs are involved in all aspects of design. Alot of guy's here are far more than weekend hobbyists.

Very simply, Loudspeaker design is primarily Physics. Guys who took General Math or Algebra will get lost soon after the starting gate. I'm in that group of the lost.

This Study is extensive and attempting to duplicate the sound of a loudspeaker you liked without duplicating that speakers drivers and that designers XO is virtually impossible .

I looked at the suggested designs given and if your statement that none of these were what you were after is true than it appears you have definite drivers or a definite appearance you desire to acheive in mind or both.

Tell the guys here exactly what you want if such is the case. You have truly been shown some excellent designs regards quality of sound. Google Curts Speaker Projects for a few more.

I can't help you as after a year of studying I've realized I'll never be a designer , the maths, theory and application would take me 4 years of full time study with a personal tutor before I could actually begin. Building isn't exactly easy either, you should see some of the garbage that's come out of my workshop to date and I do have some background there as well as a pretty decent workshop. Even MDF gets expensive when you start blowing angle cuts by a degree or 2.

Tell the Guru's what you want, pride cometh before the fall.

Bluto
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Old 14th February 2008, 07:48 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by ScottG
..and just how long does it stay a "1-way"?
If you want a true 11-octave full range speaker it does need a helper woofer or tweeter or both, but the XOs are active at the bottom and simple at the top.

I've been happily going back to a 65-16k FR for the last 5 years. Still working on getting the helpers to help out and not get in the way. Just queued up are a FR as mid-tweeter and a purpose designed active helper woofer. I know the woof is capable of close to 20, and the mid-tweeter (according to the maker) is good to 32k ... will be interesting. The hard part will be the XO, but it will be active so that makes it both easier & harder.

The one thing a good FR does right is the critical mids where 90% of the music is.

dave
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Old 15th February 2008, 03:07 AM   #34
Ceibal is offline Ceibal  United States
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bluto
Ceibel -

You say you didn't see anything amongst suggested designs you liked.

You're also asking if you wasted your money by purchasing a woofer tester and are asking which design software you should be purchasing.

I'm not trying to be offensive here, only helpful ......

If your statements are true and questions relate to your degree of understanding what makes you believe that even if you owned software you could design your own crossovers for drivers of your choice?

These guys have electrical engineering backgrounds, understand theory and are computer geniuses in comparison to most of us to boot. It's not a matter of plugging in some equipment and then feeding in your desired box size and TS parameters of drivers 'you think' would sound good and a little ticket popping out of a printer with a statement reading ' you have just designed a loudspeaker that sounds better than high end 5K units available'. There are several 'freeware' programs available that you could try without making an expenditure of any kind . Based upon the questions you ask I'm thinking your attempting to use them might convince you this stuff isn't learned overnight. If you truly understood all you need to understand to navigate these programs I'm certain you'd find you'd be spending a good deal more on equipment alone than the target price of the speakers you want to beat. Start pricing what good software costs and just how many different programs are involved in all aspects of design. Alot of guy's here are far more than weekend hobbyists.

Very simply, Loudspeaker design is primarily Physics. Guys who took General Math or Algebra will get lost soon after the starting gate. I'm in that group of the lost.

This Study is extensive and attempting to duplicate the sound of a loudspeaker you liked without duplicating that speakers drivers and that designers XO is virtually impossible .

I looked at the suggested designs given and if your statement that none of these were what you were after is true than it appears you have definite drivers or a definite appearance you desire to acheive in mind or both.

Tell the guys here exactly what you want if such is the case. You have truly been shown some excellent designs regards quality of sound. Google Curts Speaker Projects for a few more.

I can't help you as after a year of studying I've realized I'll never be a designer , the maths, theory and application would take me 4 years of full time study with a personal tutor before I could actually begin. Building isn't exactly easy either, you should see some of the garbage that's come out of my workshop to date and I do have some background there as well as a pretty decent workshop. Even MDF gets expensive when you start blowing angle cuts by a degree or 2.

Tell the Guru's what you want, pride cometh before the fall.

Bluto
I understand where you are coming from. I am doing the necessary reading and as I said before, I am just getting started. However, I do have a bit of help here. A friend of mine is an electrical engineer at Texas Instruments. That is the good part, the bad is I can't seem to get enough of his time to really help at this point.

I have started reading the Speaker Building 201 book and also have the Loudspeaker Cookbook. I learned last night that choosing the woofer is much more complex than looking at a few bits of data and price alone. So, I will be taking some time to figure out which driver to go with first for this box I have chosen, then comes the tweeter. Once I have accomplished that I will work my way into the crossover, hopefully by then I can get my TI buddy to sit down and help me do the math. It appears I have a long way to go before I can even start to build this set of speakers. I am not worried about the money so long as I accomplish my goal.
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Old 15th February 2008, 03:17 AM   #35
Ceibal is offline Ceibal  United States
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To explain what I am wanting is this: To build a set of speakers that have a high level of detail with out harsh highs. I like the highs to be smooth and natural. The drivers should provide a good level of bass without loss of detail to the music. This is why I am looking at the SEAS Excel drivers. However, I have yet to do the math as to if they will work in the enclosure I have chosen.
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Old 15th February 2008, 06:34 AM   #36
ScottG is offline ScottG  United States
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ceibal
To explain what I am wanting is this: To build a set of speakers that have a high level of detail with out harsh highs. I like the highs to be smooth and natural. The drivers should provide a good level of bass without loss of detail to the music. This is why I am looking at the SEAS Excel drivers. However, I have yet to do the math as to if they will work in the enclosure I have chosen.

The BAMTM should do that.

If you are still bent on designing your own then the drivers for your application that I'd recommend are:

Usher 8945A X 2 in an appropriate bass reflex design (i.e. a lower freq. tunning than "aligned", probably a little lower than what is referred to as an extended bass shelf design).

Neo 3 PDR and a lower freq. crossover..

Note Dennis Murphy's statement on this:

"I had not realized the Neo planar tweeter could be crossed as low as 2000 Hz, and doing so definitely makes for a more enjoyable speaker."

If designed properly, it should be what you are looking for. (i.e. that "5k beater".)
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Old 15th February 2008, 02:13 PM   #37
Ceibal is offline Ceibal  United States
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Quote:
Originally posted by ScottG



The BAMTM should do that.

If you are still bent on designing your own then the drivers for your application that I'd recommend are:

Usher 8945A X 2 in an appropriate bass reflex design (i.e. a lower freq. tunning than "aligned", probably a little lower than what is referred to as an extended bass shelf design).

Neo 3 PDR and a lower freq. crossover..

Note Dennis Murphy's statement on this:

"I had not realized the Neo planar tweeter could be crossed as low as 2000 Hz, and doing so definitely makes for a more enjoyable speaker."

If designed properly, it should be what you are looking for. (i.e. that "5k beater".)

I am really set on a closed design. Would this woofer work in that setup? Looks to have to low of a QTS according to what I am reading.
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Old 15th February 2008, 02:34 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ceibal



I am really set on a closed design. Would this woofer work in that setup? Looks to have to low of a QTS according to what I am reading.
The efficiency bandwidth product(EBP) is a guideline and because of this you'll find some drivers work well in circumstances that the EBP would lead you to believe otherwise.

My favourite example would be the Peerless XLS10 with its Qtc of 0.19. Despite that it works well, maybe even arguably best, in a sealed enclosure.
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Old 15th February 2008, 02:44 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally posted by ScottG



The BAMTM should do that.

If you are still bent on designing your own then the drivers for your application that I'd recommend are:

Usher 8945A X 2 in an appropriate bass reflex design (i.e. a lower freq. tunning than "aligned", probably a little lower than what is referred to as an extended bass shelf design).

Neo 3 PDR and a lower freq. crossover..

Note Dennis Murphy's statement on this:

"I had not realized the Neo planar tweeter could be crossed as low as 2000 Hz, and doing so definitely makes for a more enjoyable speaker."

If designed properly, it should be what you are looking for. (i.e. that "5k beater".)
Parts Express have the Usher on special at $89 so that's a good call Scott.

I'm not sure about the Neo 3 PDR but no denying its low distortion. For the tweeter I'd look at the new Seas 27TBCD/GB-DXT or as its more easily remembered part number of H1499. In particular is its impressively linear off axis response and the ability to cross fairly low - I'd imagine 1.5Khz to be no real problem for everyday use. This would be a boon for a 2-way MTM. I'm particularly interested in trying out this tweeter for myself.

Click the image to open in full size.

Plot shows 30 and 60 degrees offaxis:
Click the image to open in full size.
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Old 15th February 2008, 02:54 PM   #40
Ceibal is offline Ceibal  United States
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Quote:
Originally posted by ShinOBIWAN


The efficiency bandwidth product(EBP) is a guideline and because of this you'll find some drivers work well in circumstances that the EBP would lead you to believe otherwise.

My favourite example would be the Peerless XLS10 with its Qtc of 0.19. Despite that it works well, maybe even arguably best, in a sealed enclosure.

Is there a good way to figure out if a woofer will work best in a sealed enclosure or vented? Or, is it just one of those things you just have to try it and see if it works.
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