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Old 22nd December 2012, 05:45 PM   #51
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Default Still Crazy

So if we're concerned about the validity of the modeling, a path forward might be to retain the basic X-over design and simply substitute better quality caps and resistors with the expectation that "harshness" and spatiallity focus would improve. This has certainly been reported with this type of mods to Polks & Def Tech which are in a similar price/ market as the M.A. S6/RS6 and had similar upgrade goals. By the way, what is the difference between the two?(S6,RS6) I've been assuming, good for one would apply to both.

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Old 22nd December 2012, 08:38 PM   #52
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@dunenthem. I'm not AT ALL concerned about the accuracy of the modelling. Within certain limitations, I found it worked EXACTLY, as shown below!

As it goes, Monitor Audio have employed decent components. What they have done is cut down the number, which we might rectify.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dissi View Post
Sorry, no. The driver parameters are completely unknown. I don't think it's correct to assume Visaton AL130 and DSM25 would be similar. Obviously drivers and/or crossover of S6 and RS6 are also different.

In the case of the S6, an elliptic filter might give more spl in the upper midrange and suppress the cone break-up as well. But it's impossible to design the filter without having any driver data.
Dissi, don't take this too hard, but most people wouldn't know an elliptic filter if it slapped them in the face, although it happens I do know what one is. Please do not employ such vague audio-gibberish. Leave that to Zaph...

We are living in the real world. It IS possible to modify a crossover VERY PREDICTABLY with enough insight into filters and metal drivers. Naturally there is an element of trial and error here AND reporting back with the results. But I have, I hope, addressed the three main criticisms of the listening experience. I have also been quite conservative in changes and reused components as much as possible. Time will tell.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Monitor_Audio_RS6_Stereophile.JPG (43.0 KB, 246 views)
File Type: jpg RS6_FreqResp.JPG (114.1 KB, 211 views)
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Old 31st August 2015, 11:48 AM   #53
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Thumbs up conferm 22 ohm parallel to tweeter rs6

Quote:
Originally Posted by PALUSE View Post

Hi Rob.
Thanks for the reply!
Sorry to ask again... you put a 22Ohms resistor in parallel with the tweeter?
It will stress the amplifier, because it lowers the impedance of the HF network (X_over). Its more polite for the amplifier to put the resistor in serial with the tweeter, to attenuate the signal amplitude (Voltage)!

Best regards

Paulo

i did the 22 ohm parallel to the tweeter mod and can confirm this worked very very well actually! i used a 10 watt resister of 22 ohm. and fits perfectly. The sound is so much better now, also the bass is more deep. dont know why. maybe only because there is less high, i dont know but the speakers are kicking *** so much now! good luck everybody with the RS6.
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Old 15th October 2015, 10:59 PM   #54
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Default RS-6 Crossover Details

Still looking to modify my M.A RS6 crossover......I discovered that there are significant differences from the S6 discussed above. We knew that it was different based on the F.R. ascending on the stereophile measurements. Anyway, after opening up, this is what I found;

Version 2 ,RS6 scribed on the circuit board;(Stock Crossover)


,,l-----l----C1---R1---- + ,,,,Tweeter
,,l,,,,,,,l
>l,,,,,,L1
,,l,,,,,,,l
,,l-----l--------------- -

R1=7W2.2ohm
C1=6.0,250V
L1 = ? very small coil



,,l------l-------L2------ +,,,,Midwoofer
,,l,,,,,,,,l
,,l,,,,,,,C2
>l,,,,,,,,l
,,l,,,,,,,L3
,,l,,,,,,,,l
,,l------l--------------- -

L2=.8mH,
C2=4.0,100V
L3= ? ~twice the L1 coil





,,l--------L4---------- +,,,Woofer
,,l
>l
,,l
,,l-------------------- -

L4= 5.0Mh

Still too much treble, some harsh upper mid. longterm listening still an issue although much improved via tube preamp,tube cd player. I have tried routing my tube preamp out to my parasound p7 where I can use my tone controls. Typically -4 gets me to a better place on the high end but clearly the tone circuit has degraded the signal slightly.

My current thought is to try the 22 ohm across the tweeter with a 4 ohm replacement on the series resistor first. Does this approach still make sense given this crossover? I noticed they put a Zobel? on the mid woofer ,not the tweeter.

I wonder what system7 has to say regarding the evolution of S6 TO RS6. Any comments would be appreciated. By the way, where do you guys stand on bypass Caps? Any application here ?
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Old 17th October 2015, 02:26 AM   #55
system7 is offline system7  United Kingdom
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Anybody doing a PROPER job with metal midbass cones deals with the breakup around 7kHz.

DIY-Loudspeakers

This what is called a 2.5 way. If you are interested, you can do some mods.

There's plenty of ideas in this thread. Have a go.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Monitor Audio S6.JPG (12.1 KB, 100 views)
File Type: png Monitor Audio S6.PNG (21.8 KB, 132 views)
File Type: jpg Monitor Audio RS6 modified.JPG (48.7 KB, 130 views)
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Old 23rd October 2015, 11:58 PM   #56
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Default Dazed and Confused

System 7 ,you lost me on this latest schematic. Re;

1. The Zobel is now gone on the tweeter?
2 The twin 8 mF shunt Caps have been replaced? New Zobel on the bass unit?
3. The 15mF butterworth is now a 10mF?
4. The upsized coil in mid bass is now back to 1mH?

I don't get it. What changed?
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Old 24th October 2015, 02:31 AM   #57
system7 is offline system7  United Kingdom
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Why do you think for a minute that Monitor Audio, with a revolving door of staff, have really any idea what they are doing with this combination of drive units?

The S6 was the earliest version. IIRC, the RS6 was an adjusted crossover version. FWIW, most 5-6" basses look like this:
AL 130 - 8 Ohm

Shiny metal drivers that look good, but can it be improved soundwise? I thought so: Monitor Audio S6 tweek

I gave the basses more rolloff to reduce the 7kHz bell resonance and zobelled the tweeter and made it third order to stop it sounding so bright at the top and match slopes. Give it a go. If it's no good, come back! This is diy. It either works or it doesn't.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Monitor Audio S6.JPG (12.1 KB, 39 views)
File Type: png system7 trial circuit.PNG (53.4 KB, 42 views)
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Old 10th January 2016, 07:10 PM   #58
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Thumbs up Took The Leap

I decided to take a stab at improving the RS6 s. Lack of experience, measuring equipment, and 63 yr old ears have not deterred me yet. Took the schematic from system 7 as a starting point;

1. intalled the RC network on the tweeters. Used 8 ohm resistor and 2.2 mH cap
in parallel to the driver. A smoother high end resulted , very satisfied with the improvement w/o any obvious loss of valid information.

2. arranged with wires and clips to install an "outside the housing" 3rd order arrangement . Ran multiple capacitors to cover values from 13 to 19. Long story short, I have been unable to find a value that doesn't either suffer unnatural harmonics or a dramatically reduced upper midrange. The best for harmonics was 18.33 but the music was 2 dimensional with little impact compared to the original XO with the RC addition to the tweeter. I've been back and forth several times and just can't get into the 3rd order arrangement on the tweeter. It seems as if I'm losing quite a bit of depth/ spatiality and sharp edges to the HF content. It does clean up a lot of the lower HF distortion but at too much of a cost to musicality. Much too sterile for my tastes so far.

My question is, how flat is the sweet spot? I have been covering every 1/3 mH in the range mentioned earlier. I am assuming this should show an optimum if its there. I am about ready to give up on the 3rd order and focus on the midrange/woofers.

Any comments or suggestions?
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Old 11th January 2016, 12:44 AM   #59
system7 is offline system7  United Kingdom
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There's a point in audio when anybody with an open mind admits that there is no clear answer.

Click the image to open in full size.

According to my current thinking, a 7.5R plus 2uF Zobel (not sure if "2.2mH" cap is a typo?) across the tweeter ought to do good things. I am ready to admit that a 22R 10W wirewound resistor shunted across the tweeter might effect a similar improvement in top end smoothness.

Actually improves amplifier stability more than anything.
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Old 22nd June 2016, 06:12 PM   #60
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Default The next step;

At the time of my last post, I had settled on the original crossover with the addition of an R-C network across the tweeter. Wasn't able to get the 3rd order arrangement to sound better- cleaner but not better. Again , thanks to System7 for his suggestions.

Since that time , I have modified the crossovers further;
1. Removed the magnetic standoff between the binding post and the XO board. Hardwired the connection(s).
2. Removed the ORIGINAL capacitors and resisters and replaced with identical values using Mills 10 watt resisters and "new" capacitors I purchased from Jeff at Soniccraft. Rewired the runs from the XO board to the drivers for the tweeter and midrange.
3. Removed the temporary RC network across the tweeter and replaced it with a mills resister and Soniccap of identical value(s).

I am happy to report I was able to fit the new components on the existing board with the exception of the RC network which I put behind the tweeter. Pretty cramped but do-able.

I now have about 75 hours on the new crossover. Here are my thoughts at this time;

-The addition of the RC network to the original crossover was able to remove the objectionable "harsh" component to the music without removing musical content. An easy and inexpensive upgrade when installed behind the tweeter.

-The new component upgrade brought a much smoother, sweeter presentation to the music while at the same time exposed much more detail than before. The previous soundstage was wide but had the conical blare feeling at the primary listening position. After the modification ,a wall of music appeared and the soundstage was much more three dimensional. There is now an ease to the music -listening fatique is greatly reduced. I am very happy with this upgrade.

I know there are many well respected experts in the audio industry that can't hear an improvement when upgrading over stock capacitors /resistors.In MY system it was such a dramatic and obvious improvement that there must be very system specific influences at work here .

I have never attempted this type of modification before -minimal soldering experience. It wasn't complex but overall many hours of trial and error listening went into this. The actual modification took maybe 4 hours per board. I could probably do it in half the time now.

Jeff at Soniccraft provided direction across many minutes/hours of phone calls. This guy knows his stuff and having him guide me in this process was what made it successful. Thanks Jeff
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