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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

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Old 3rd December 2012, 07:01 PM   #41
system7 is offline system7  United Kingdom
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Many questions implied in those posts.

Zobel networks are at best an approximation. For sure they correct impedance when correctly calculated. This estimate is as good as most:
Impedance Equalization (L-Pad) Circuit Designer / Calculator

When you build a time-aligned speaker, which looks like this, you generally find that second order filters work best on bass and treble.:

Click the image to open in full size.

However, with a flat baffle, you need to delay the treble response so that the bass aligns well. This is done by adding a first order element which is pure delay to the tweeter. This is the expensive 3rd. Order Butterworth filter. Expensive because it needs a large (ca. 15uF) capacitor after the 2nd order element. It has a benefit of increased slope which helps the tweeter work well at the Fs resonance.

Mathematically it is a beautiful filter with hexagonal symettry and some relation to atomic orbitals in Quantum Mechanics. Trust me on this, 3rd. Order is right here for the optimum result.

Click the image to open in full size.

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Old 3rd December 2012, 07:11 PM   #42
system7 is offline system7  United Kingdom
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Oh, I missed the question about the standard 27kHz resonance of aluminium dome tweeters. Modern domes are made with with all sorts of materials on the surround. This modifies the characteristic resonant frequency of metal tweeters.

It is also common to use aircraft-grade Titanium, which is also different. Anodizing tweeters with a stiff oxide coating also causes changes. The theory is that all this stuff is supersonic, but in my experience, you hear the characteristic signature of metal in the harmonic output. The fact is that drivers and cabinets sound like what they are made of.
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Last edited by system7; 3rd December 2012 at 07:13 PM.
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Old 3rd December 2012, 10:13 PM   #43
PALUSE is offline PALUSE  Portugal
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Good evening, Steve. Once more i appreciate your time and knowledge sharing to clarify some of my immense doubts. Thank you very much.
Its noticeable that you are very comfortable with loudspeakers projects; most probably you work in the field.
Unfortunately i dont have a degree in electronics. It was my option, so i try to learn it gently.
I can get two MKP caps with 15uF/250V, by € 20,00 with delivery. The doubt is: Does it returns the investment in sound quality terms with the original HF drives?
A notice about the MA Silver S6: It have two reflex ports at the rear side. One at the bottom and one at the top. People should try it with the provided plugs, before "hammering" the "Xover".

Another question is: Do the SEAS Exotic w8t35 project worth the investment?

Best regards

Paulo

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Old 4th December 2012, 05:37 AM   #44
system7 is offline system7  United Kingdom
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PALUSE, the question was how to improve the Monitor Audio loudspeaker. I have done that for you with some crossover tweaks. It will cost money, and you may even prefer the rougher original design which doubtless has some immediate impact. Since it is a 1000 Euro speaker, I don't think 20 Euros for capacitors is disproportionate. This is DIY, and you either are into it or not.

The SEAS Exotic W8 project is a nice one. 2000 Euros on drivers is rather a lot, but they do look fun in the high efficiency bracket. This sort of speaker has an enthusiastic following among valve users, and DeVore make something in this style with the Orangutan.

I might fancy a more affordable SEAS ER18RNX with a slightly different filter and an Excel tweeter, but no question those SEAS exotic drivers are works of art and state of the art!
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Old 4th December 2012, 02:16 PM   #45
PALUSE is offline PALUSE  Portugal
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Hi Steve.
Of course its DIY, and in this case, not a difficult one.
As before, i appreciate your kind effort, sharing the knowledge and data, so its time to talk with Audyn site,for this 3rd order Butterworth. Its behavior is very consistent with the math behind it!

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Old 5th December 2012, 11:14 PM   #46
PALUSE is offline PALUSE  Portugal
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For time being, its with the Zobel (8,2 Ohms+1uF), and the original mid drive 4uF PP cap is cleaning the top band of the low drive; in prallel with the drive!
For my surprise, it delivers a more confortable listening and depth of the soundstage. Treble is more comfortable present. A new step to evaluate.
The final and definitive upgrade have to wait... I decide to go all the way, when i can expend all the cash. The 2mH inductors with 0,29Ohms are damn expensive.
One step at the time...

Bye...

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Old 22nd December 2012, 12:35 AM   #47
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Question Am I Crazy?

So how expensive are they vs a new speaker(s) purchase? I think the basic premise is that these are worth putting money into as original build quality was good but cheap parts starting a degradation slide is contributing to the deteriorating sonics.




I'm considering pumping $400-$500 in upgrades to these (rs6) Am I CRAZY????

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Old 22nd December 2012, 03:52 AM   #48
Dissi is offline Dissi  Switzerland
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A review of the Monitor Audio Silver 6S let me doubt about the crossover modification in the midrange:

Audio Ideas Guide Hi-Fi and Home Theater Equipment Reviews: Monitor Audio Silver 6S

The frequency response shows an early roll-off starting at 1 kHz. Increasing the coil and the capacitor, as Steve suggests, will make things only worse.
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Old 22nd December 2012, 05:39 AM   #49
system7 is offline system7  United Kingdom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dissi View Post
A review of the Monitor Audio Silver 6S let me doubt about the crossover modification in the midrange:

Audio Ideas Guide Hi-Fi and Home Theater Equipment Reviews: Monitor Audio Silver 6S

The frequency response shows an early roll-off starting at 1 kHz. Increasing the coil and the capacitor, as Steve suggests, will make things only worse.
Do you have any better suggestions?

I can only reiterate what I have done and why I did it. Firstly I attempted to reduce the cone breakup from the metal woofers. This should make for a smoother sound without metal harshness.

Secondly I attempted to smooth out the midrange dip at 3kHz. This needed a 3rd order filter and the bigger bass coil.

Lastly I attempted to reduce the top end a little. This needs the Zobel.

It's worth mentioning that an expensive 0.3R coil is really not needed. About 0.8R would doubtless be fine. The 15uF capacitor can be lost with a return close to the original tweeter filter and a better phase response. There is nothing stopping you reducing the input resistor to the tweeter filter to 1.5R for more treble level, as long as you are aware you stress the tweeter more.

It's a shame AllenB no longer posts here. I can understand his reasons. People here make awfully hard work of what should be a fun hobby.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg RS6_Original.JPG (27.1 KB, 92 views)
File Type: jpg RS6_Modified.JPG (29.5 KB, 86 views)
File Type: jpg RS6_FreqResp.JPG (114.1 KB, 87 views)
File Type: jpg RS6_PhaseResp.JPG (98.2 KB, 29 views)
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Old 22nd December 2012, 02:22 PM   #50
Dissi is offline Dissi  Switzerland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by system7 View Post
Do you have any better suggestions?
Sorry, no. The driver parameters are completely unknown. I don't think it's correct to assume Visaton AL130 and DSM25 would be similar. Obviously drivers and/or crossover of S6 and RS6 are also different.

In the case of the S6, an elliptic filter might give more spl in the upper midrange and suppress the cone break-up as well. But it's impossible to design the filter without having any driver data.
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