Brett said:
I don't know if this is what you're looking for, but it is an option. Be aware that there are only a few days left for the "special pricing" on the combo.
Also on the same forum, there is a thread on the new 18 inch driver that is coming out (XJ-18).
URL: http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/index.php?topic=47997.0
Best Regards,
TerryO
JerMu said:
Lots of people will disagree over what a good driver is because they have different goals... there are drivers that do get a lot of traffic and figure in a lot of designs, but you won't find 1 driver that everyone thinks is great, you probably won't even find one that everyone thinks is good... for instance i don't think i could live with the great plains Terry mentioned...
One of the drivers that does figure in a lot of designs and would fall in the good sound for your buck is the Fostex FE127e (and of course i'd figure a FE127eN is even better value)... but they just have the kind of dynamics that someone like Brett looks for -- i do suspect he'd find they make a really nice computer speaker.
Lots more examples of this kind of thing exist. IIts all about what trade-offs you can live with... and with even the very best getting to maybe 10% of all the goals it is easy to get 2 perfectly valid speakers that each satisfy a specific person's tradoffs, and still be more different than alike.
Also keep in mind that a speaker should never be considered in isolation from the amps & cabling it will be used with ... the Jim Holtz Statement mentioned for instance, would sound like trash in my system because it is not suited for my preferred amplification.
dave
planet10 said:
All you said is true, well most of it
I will only comment about Jim Holtz Statement that I mentioned it because there is a smaller version and also a matching center speaker
I doubt it will be "the best" at all, but my thought was that it might end up much better than what an unexperienced can achieve starting from zero designing his own, no matter what ever drivers are used
Some people seem to think that dynamics come from size and huge SPL rating...well, I strongly believe it comes with good phase response
Use whatever drivers you like...crossovers will always be the important key factor
Well, Dave might say that the lack of crossover is more important
tinitus said:
I agree. Jim's Statement is a good use of Parts Express sourced Dayton drivers. They would do well in home theatre use. They are on the large side. The mini-version of the same speakers are pretty large, too.
The Modula M/T's over on htguide.com are good value.
A nice small speaker... could easily use prebuilt cabinets to make them.
A friend built a Seas Excel MTM with a Rick Craig designed crossover. It's good and sounds good played loud. My friend is starting to thinik it sounds a bit metallic.
But... for home theatre I would lean towards multi-way horns.
High efficiency horns can sound effortless with relatively low power and inexpensive amplifiers. My buddy's Klipsh horns are much more dynamic sounding than my triamp/active crossover system.
I personally use Scanspeak/Vifa and am happy with the results.
I get good bass, good detail. But the sound is a bit lifeless compared to horns.
You really need to attend some speaker DIY events to get an idea of what sounds good to you. No sense in building a speaker you haven't heard.
Okay lets try it this way...
What do you guys think of:
http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=149&products_id=1601
with
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=264-848
I think this configuration will compose my center and surrounds with 2 of the tang bands (in parallel), and one of the Seas, this will also be the upper range of my tower speakers that will be my front mains, but I will add a sub unit(probably 2 8" subs or maybe 6" subs). I have not decided on the sub units yet, how low would you guys suggest a tower set dip to before the actual sub kicks in and takes the sound the rest of the way down? I also plan on rebuilding a sub for my system and upgrading to something a bit more potent than my Atlas 12 right now. I am partial to Ascendant Audio's subs since I have had good results from my Atlast 12, but I am open to other options.
This is just a sample of what I am looking at I am also considering http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=264-512 for the tweeter. Keep in mind that my selection is not only based on function but I am hoping to have some asthetics as well. I really like the silver and black look the metal drivers offer.
At first glance I am thinking of a XO point of around 2.5khz for the mid and upper end, and the sub region is wide open as I would like your thoughts on how low the towers should go before the actual sub kicks in.
I am sure this plan is flawed right now, but I would appreciate any and all constructive criticisms. If you have any ideas that would work better as far as driver selection, XO, etc please chim in.
As I've stated earlier I just feel like I'm lost in a seas of possibilities, and I'm not totally sure where to start with my driver selection. This is my feeble attempt to get the discussion started. Thanks for any and all help you guys can provide and have provided already.
JerMu
What do you guys think of:
http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=149&products_id=1601
with
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=264-848
I think this configuration will compose my center and surrounds with 2 of the tang bands (in parallel), and one of the Seas, this will also be the upper range of my tower speakers that will be my front mains, but I will add a sub unit(probably 2 8" subs or maybe 6" subs). I have not decided on the sub units yet, how low would you guys suggest a tower set dip to before the actual sub kicks in and takes the sound the rest of the way down? I also plan on rebuilding a sub for my system and upgrading to something a bit more potent than my Atlas 12 right now. I am partial to Ascendant Audio's subs since I have had good results from my Atlast 12, but I am open to other options.
This is just a sample of what I am looking at I am also considering http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=264-512 for the tweeter. Keep in mind that my selection is not only based on function but I am hoping to have some asthetics as well. I really like the silver and black look the metal drivers offer.
At first glance I am thinking of a XO point of around 2.5khz for the mid and upper end, and the sub region is wide open as I would like your thoughts on how low the towers should go before the actual sub kicks in.
I am sure this plan is flawed right now, but I would appreciate any and all constructive criticisms. If you have any ideas that would work better as far as driver selection, XO, etc please chim in.
As I've stated earlier I just feel like I'm lost in a seas of possibilities, and I'm not totally sure where to start with my driver selection. This is my feeble attempt to get the discussion started. Thanks for any and all help you guys can provide and have provided already.
JerMu
JerMu said:
A speaker with lots of listinging fatigue. The 4" by itself would probably be better... a notch filter could fix the FR but it won't fix any of the other problems that that spike causes... you'd need to fix it mechanically (and given the TB consistency (at least according to Mark McM -- master of fixing these kinds of resonances) you'd have to measure and fix the problem for each sample separately.
Even getting it to perform half-**** would require an XO master and a whole lot of parts.
3 strikes...
We have at least established a base-line budget. $55 + $30 + (WAG) $50 for XO parts = $135 per speaker.
I guarantee you that a set of FE127eN (some might say i'm biased as far as that driver goes thou) in one of the many well proofed designs available will leave it in the dust. And if the FE127eN doesn't have enuff top for you, the $5 Dayton used in the BOFU combo with a 1.5 uF series cap would fix that and you'd still be under budget.
Actually the BOFU pair for under $100/pr for drivers (and shipping) would likely outperform this combo and have a whole lot more bass (i'm speaking out of my hat thou, not having heard the BOFU -- i do have 4 in their boxes in the lab, but i'm not likely to even bother listening to them stock)
dave
Many very good suggestions here, some a bit tricky demanding some experience
It seems you are leaning towards something like this Madisound kit designed by Zaph...and it even comes with veneered cabinet
Sorry to say, but you will not be able to design your own and get a decent result
If you were into this only fore learning, I would say go fore it...but when it comes down to only wanting a good setup I will say forget all about designing...you need a kitset, five of these should do fine
You also mentioned subs...well, I remember Gedlee mention multiple subs to be a must, which in my book means 3 or 4 subs...driver size, no less than 10" drivers
http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=8306
Personally I only use a pair of big very good stereo floorstanders, and that is all it takes to scare me
It seems you are leaning towards something like this Madisound kit designed by Zaph...and it even comes with veneered cabinet
Sorry to say, but you will not be able to design your own and get a decent result
If you were into this only fore learning, I would say go fore it...but when it comes down to only wanting a good setup I will say forget all about designing...you need a kitset, five of these should do fine
You also mentioned subs...well, I remember Gedlee mention multiple subs to be a must, which in my book means 3 or 4 subs...driver size, no less than 10" drivers
http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=8306
Personally I only use a pair of big very good stereo floorstanders, and that is all it takes to scare me
Well, lets start back at the beginning--If sound is more important than cost, then I withdraw my recommendation for a two way and whole-heartedly recommend a 3-way. It is what I listen to, having given up on 2-ways.
I think the fullrange capable driver for a midrange is also the way to go, again, its pretty much what I have in my speakers. I also like metal cone midranges, to my ear, they are far more detailed than paper or plastic. But yes, 'listening fatigue', caused by a resonant cone can be an issue.
If I were buying drivers to build a new design, my short list for a midrange would be:
Peerless ppb 830870
The 4" titanium tang-band you mentioned
The 4" Seas magnesium cone Excel line woofer
Unfortunately, I haven't built with these mids, so I can't say this is a recommendation based on experience.
My last design used the Tang Band w3 1335SB 'titanium' cone fullrange driver as a midrange. The sound from this midrange is completely non-resonant, but not quite as detailed as some other metal coned drivers. I think this is due mostly the soft plast (PP?) inverted dustcap. I think of it as more a composite cone than a true metal cone. My only complaint is that I seem to get less lower midbass than from a previous design that used 4" metal coned drivers.
I'll sign off for now -- this post is long enough.
JJ
I am in this to learn, and I would like to have something to produce good sound as well. I do intend to build / design the thing myself so I am not looking to get this resolved by next week. I understand a lot of obstacle lay between me and my finished product, but that is cool.
Secondly, I do entend to have 2 floorstanding speakers (mains), along with 1 or 2 seperate subs (one big one if I can get away with it) and then a system of surround components (center, rear, sides)that will pretty much be a carbon copy of my floor standing speakers minus the woofers that the floor units would have (i.e. the floor standing units will be a 3 way(MTMWW), while the surrounds will be a two-way(MTM). This is what I have in mind right now, but please point me in a better direction if I stray from the beaten path too much.
I appreciate the tips, and I do like Zaph's designs, however as I stated before I am seeking a blend of function and form, and plain jane black speakers are something I am trying to steer clear of, that was one of the reasons I picked the previously posted drivers. Some of his (Zaph) all metal speakers are one thing that turned me on to the "not just black driver", however I was hoping to get a little more sensitivity than his designs have. I really like the Seas excel line with the copper bullets, but I can't afford those, so as we proceed down the path of picking drivers try to keep asthetics in mind.
As far as amplifiers go, I am going to be in the market for a new reciever once I get this project in full swing or nearing completion. I don't know what I'll be using, but I do want to make sure it is a THX unit (even though this is not an electronics forum I'd take any suggestions that you guys want to throw at me).
Please explain what you mean by "listening fatigue", what causes it, and how is it overcome?
Would you guys think a 3" mid would be better than a 4"? My thoughts were the 4" in order to be able to move enough air to do justice to the lower end of the mid range before the woofers took the load, and I thought by having a small tweeter at the top end that would give more clarity since a dedicated driver built for that SHOULD sound better than one built to cover the entire spectrum.
thanks for the thoughts, I feel like I'm getting somewhere now. Sorry for the confusion before...
Secondly, I do entend to have 2 floorstanding speakers (mains), along with 1 or 2 seperate subs (one big one if I can get away with it) and then a system of surround components (center, rear, sides)that will pretty much be a carbon copy of my floor standing speakers minus the woofers that the floor units would have (i.e. the floor standing units will be a 3 way(MTMWW), while the surrounds will be a two-way(MTM). This is what I have in mind right now, but please point me in a better direction if I stray from the beaten path too much.
I appreciate the tips, and I do like Zaph's designs, however as I stated before I am seeking a blend of function and form, and plain jane black speakers are something I am trying to steer clear of, that was one of the reasons I picked the previously posted drivers. Some of his (Zaph) all metal speakers are one thing that turned me on to the "not just black driver", however I was hoping to get a little more sensitivity than his designs have. I really like the Seas excel line with the copper bullets, but I can't afford those, so as we proceed down the path of picking drivers try to keep asthetics in mind.
As far as amplifiers go, I am going to be in the market for a new reciever once I get this project in full swing or nearing completion. I don't know what I'll be using, but I do want to make sure it is a THX unit (even though this is not an electronics forum I'd take any suggestions that you guys want to throw at me).
Please explain what you mean by "listening fatigue", what causes it, and how is it overcome?
Would you guys think a 3" mid would be better than a 4"? My thoughts were the 4" in order to be able to move enough air to do justice to the lower end of the mid range before the woofers took the load, and I thought by having a small tweeter at the top end that would give more clarity since a dedicated driver built for that SHOULD sound better than one built to cover the entire spectrum.
thanks for the thoughts, I feel like I'm getting somewhere now. Sorry for the confusion before...
You fancy a wideband middriver how about the new Seas http://www.seas.no/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=191&Itemid=187
To remain a bit exotic you could use a Hivi planar tweet http://www.swanspeaker.com/product/htm/view.asp?id=17
Woofers?
I sure hope the Seas is better than on measurements...the trick with this is that you may be able to use the Seas without woofers fore the surrounds...well, maybe it will be a bit too costly
how about the new Seas http://www.seas.no/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=191&Itemid=187To remain a bit exotic you could use a Hivi planar tweet http://www.swanspeaker.com/product/htm/view.asp?id=17
Woofers?
I sure hope the Seas is better than on measurements...the trick with this is that you may be able to use the Seas without woofers fore the surrounds...well, maybe it will be a bit too costly
Nah, maybe I better stick with my prvious suggestion to build something proven, and not get carried away
QUOTE]Originally posted by JerMu
Please explain what you mean by "listening fatigue", what causes it, and how is it overcome?
Listening fatique simply occurs when your brain gets tired or in some more rare occations when there is a body reaction of unpleasent being ... in both cases music listening leads to stress instead of giving a relaxed and pleasant feeling
What causes this
Mostly a too bright sound, but also a too heavy bass
Commonly also followed by phase problems
Too bright sound may come from cone breakup, ringing or simply too loud a tweeter
Very often its due to midrange having problems above xo point, and in this respect even woofers may be the cause too, even if crossed low
Wrong BSC is an issue too
Flawed xo layout, design and execution or wrong use of xo components
And as Dave stated earlier all the other components in the signal chain are equally important
A more dark or mellow sound might be easier on the ears, but then there is a risk of music loosing its sparkle and becoming less envolving
To achieve both good ambience and finely textured "dark" sound is all in all a very fine a delicate balance, and honestly I really dont know where a surround setup fits in
QUOTE]Originally posted by JerMu
Please explain what you mean by "listening fatigue", what causes it, and how is it overcome?
Listening fatique simply occurs when your brain gets tired or in some more rare occations when there is a body reaction of unpleasent being ... in both cases music listening leads to stress instead of giving a relaxed and pleasant feeling
What causes this
Mostly a too bright sound, but also a too heavy bass
Commonly also followed by phase problems
Too bright sound may come from cone breakup, ringing or simply too loud a tweeter
Very often its due to midrange having problems above xo point, and in this respect even woofers may be the cause too, even if crossed low
Wrong BSC is an issue too
Flawed xo layout, design and execution or wrong use of xo components
And as Dave stated earlier all the other components in the signal chain are equally important
A more dark or mellow sound might be easier on the ears, but then there is a risk of music loosing its sparkle and becoming less envolving
To achieve both good ambience and finely textured "dark" sound is all in all a very fine a delicate balance, and honestly I really dont know where a surround setup fits in
"Listening fatique simply occurs when your brain gets tired or in some more rare occations when there is a body reaction of unpleasent being ... "
That "body reaction of unpleasant being" makes me a bit nervous...
I'm assuming you are referring to the "bright" spots (i.e. higher db frequencies) on the drivers graphs, mainly the spike between 10-20khz on the tang band and the fact that the seas tweeter lives at about the 93db level for most of its frequency. My thoughts were that we'd tame everything down to about 90db with the XO, I'm just picking drivers that exceed or meet that requirement right now. The Tang Band will be filtered out at it's "bright" region and the seas tweeter will be rocking at that point so even if that "bright spot" were something we couldn't tame, I don't think it will be a factor because the cross over will ocurr much before that point. Do you still think fatigue would set in at 90db (as flat as we can get it)?
I guess another question would be is a 90db system to straining on the ear?
I'm still looking at subs I'll try to post some in the next day or so, and then you guys can give me thoughts on the woofer and what direction I might go with the XO (if you don't mind).
That "body reaction of unpleasant being" makes me a bit nervous...
I'm assuming you are referring to the "bright" spots (i.e. higher db frequencies) on the drivers graphs, mainly the spike between 10-20khz on the tang band and the fact that the seas tweeter lives at about the 93db level for most of its frequency. My thoughts were that we'd tame everything down to about 90db with the XO, I'm just picking drivers that exceed or meet that requirement right now. The Tang Band will be filtered out at it's "bright" region and the seas tweeter will be rocking at that point so even if that "bright spot" were something we couldn't tame, I don't think it will be a factor because the cross over will ocurr much before that point. Do you still think fatigue would set in at 90db (as flat as we can get it)?
I guess another question would be is a 90db system to straining on the ear?
I'm still looking at subs I'll try to post some in the next day or so, and then you guys can give me thoughts on the woofer and what direction I might go with the XO (if you don't mind).
Regarding listening fatigue, my quick response would have been that is due to the resonant sound of cone breakup. But after reading Tinitus explanation, I'd have he say he captured a lot of other unpleasantries that would lead to listening fatigue if I had to tolerate them indefinetely.
As far as the question, "what is better --a 3" or 4" mid?" I will hopefully know in a week or so. I am adding dampening material to the 4" metal cone mids. If it gets rid of the resonant sound, I will be in heaven.
The 4 inch drivers I have are not Ti, they are CMMD -- very different materials. Zaph had some good comments about the 4 inch Ti tangbands. In my experience if you set your crossover point frequency at less than 1/3 the frequency of the breakup mode, then you will not hear any resonance. If the breakup mode is above 10kHz, this is easy to do.
An additional thought -- True metal cone drivers will definitely reveal the faults of your amp or receiver. But I don't think listening fatigue would be an issue while watching a movie.
And one more stray thought, 4" drivers will probably not have enough bass to use as two way surrounds. I am using my modified Odin's as surrounds, where they kick butt.
JJ
As far as the question, "what is better --a 3" or 4" mid?" I will hopefully know in a week or so. I am adding dampening material to the 4" metal cone mids. If it gets rid of the resonant sound, I will be in heaven.
The 4 inch drivers I have are not Ti, they are CMMD -- very different materials. Zaph had some good comments about the 4 inch Ti tangbands. In my experience if you set your crossover point frequency at less than 1/3 the frequency of the breakup mode, then you will not hear any resonance. If the breakup mode is above 10kHz, this is easy to do.
No--that has only to do with the volume put out by the first volt out of your amplifier.
An additional thought -- True metal cone drivers will definitely reveal the faults of your amp or receiver. But I don't think listening fatigue would be an issue while watching a movie.
And one more stray thought, 4" drivers will probably not have enough bass to use as two way surrounds. I am using my modified Odin's as surrounds, where they kick butt.
JJ
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