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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

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Old 15th December 2007, 03:32 AM   #91
bastek is offline bastek  United States
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Why is this thread getting so much attention? Is it because it's a high price item? Would it be the same response for a $400 pair? Is it because of the magic involved? The dream of all diyers? In a free economy the crooks must (will) survive. The love of sound must not blind us. It's only a hobby, like fishing, hunting, painting or photography. Experience, science and will. No need to clone anything.
Just create. That's what diyAudio is all about.
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Old 15th December 2007, 03:39 AM   #92
el`Ol is offline el`Ol  Germany
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Originally posted by Andy Graddon

methinks you are over-estimating the cab cost !!

Similar cabinets have been built for way less than that using the same high quality birch ply on a one off basis. If done on a larger scale, the cost would be greatly reduced further.
The cabs are NOT labour intensive if you have a CNC or similar, nor are they especially elaborate, and certainly are not innovative !! I know several DIY guys who were doing that type of cabinet many years ago. It is nice to see commercial guys starting to copy us !!!

A water beam cutter does 25m/s with a precision of 0.025mm. Give it a standard-size multiplex board and it will cut you the parts for ten magicos within a few seconds.
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Old 15th December 2007, 04:15 AM   #93
Nanook is offline Nanook  Canada
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Default lost and found...

Ok , so I looked in on this thread, and read through a portion of it.
We all need to understand what the "real cost" of manufacturing is, and what the gross cost of manufacturing is.

the $50 Eddie Bauer "slacks" had better not cost more than $7-$8 to make, else someone is loosing out big time, and stores would be closing.

Think of it this way:
  • say 10% of selling price is material and labour cost
  • another 10-15% for design and marketing
  • another 10-15% for freight and shipping
  • 10-15% for packaging

and now once in the US or Canada or where ever, often 10-15% in local expenses
So when one pays $50 for an item, it costs the store in "real" money something in the neighbourhood of $30 or so.

And no real "engineering" or R&D occurs other than getting a cut right or a colour right.

This is the reality of business, ask any one you might know that is a manufacturer of any goods, I'm sure they will agree. And of course, we haven't started to talk about warranty costs.

For most DIYers, it is a matter of what they can afford , regardless of what something will cost them. A good example may very well be the Magico Minis. Could you build a comparable sounding , comparably built and engineered product for USD $3.5-$4.5k? I think so, and in fact I think for a lot less than $3.5-$4.5k.

So if one is likely to want to clone a product or develop a similar quality product, allow yourself a budget of say (maybe) up to 35%. That should include calculating your labour cost as well--just to allow a fair comparison.

The beauty of DIY (in my limited view) is that if one wishes to either follow a known "recipe", one can end up with something very good for a fraction of the cost of something that may be mediocre at best, or become creative and inspired to use a known commercial design as an inspiration.

Case in point:
  • easy to build OB speakers for USD $300-$400 a pair, that sound way better than they have any right to
  • well documented diy designs that use proven good performers for drivers and tweeters
  • classic , but great sounding vintage gear
  • diy vacuum tubes and SS, including T-amps, gainclones, DAC, stc

So whether any here wanted it or not, there's my view.

Of course if well healed enough and too busy, and time is money (for some people it may very well be), then please go buy the product you really want. For the rest of us, know that there is pride and some comfort in enjoying this hobby more than any possible financial savings that might occur.

Peace out.

stew -"A sane man in an insane world appears insane."
Let's help Ruth and Dave
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Old 15th December 2007, 08:08 AM   #94
Andy G is offline Andy G  Australia
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Hi Nanook,

Interesting to see that we came up with about the same figure to do something very similar , on a one-off basis !!

I suspect that the real cost for a manufacturer would be around the $2000 mark or less.

Its all those advertisements and reviews to pay for, and all the middlemen !!

x10 ???

except Bose x20+
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Old 15th December 2007, 03:41 PM   #95
KBK is offline KBK  Canada
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Originally posted by salas
Chris, those expenses are much lower when you talk on an OEM basis for 30+ pieces. Whatever you can make as one off private, think 3 to 4 times lower as a small scale manufacturer. Other costs come into play. Mainly marketing, packaging, and public relations. Drivers cost 3 times less from retail when for OEM. I am not making this up. And the suggested retail is 3X the export price list for the dealer as I posted earlier. It boils down to such a chain in order to get small scale production luxury items available worldwide, stocked, advertised, demoed and paid. I personally don't object well off people enjoying ready made, exquisite looking, many to chose from, fast to play with, luxury items. I object myth.
And I like DIY bcs it opens the door for us working class to enjoy good sonics too. Plus it gives us the great side benefit of the power to create. Maybe a bigger deal than getting the sound after all.
The statement about OEM costing being 3x less than that of retail is profoundly untrue.

If you run into a situation where the price of the driver is -3x the retail $, when OEM'ing it, then someone is dipping their hands very deeply into the money trough. Many times that driver is one that has been manufactured in china through the use of copied and stolen European and US technology, with little to no respect for the effort, money and time spent on getting to that understanding an implementation of the given technological aspects. Violation of patents and intellectual property is as common as the huge # of drivers coming out of china.

For the most part, the ideas are copied, with little to no understanding of the function of the given technological aspect. Added to that..for the larger part, it is 'hit and miss' for finding the driver that has decent implementation of all aspects, to make for a 'properly working' driver.

I've been approached more than once by a given manufacturer out of China who has offered to implement any given 'modifications' I may have for drivers. I've turned them all down, as I cannot assure myself that they won't take my work and use it as their own and sell it to everyone who asks for it, and then destroy the integrity of my enterprise. I've even had the given manufacturer hang themselves right in front of me, when the tell me a story about how they 'create' a driver for a guy, to his exact spec....and then sell it to 8 other manufacturers. Such activity is basically criminal, in my mind. It shows a severe lack of integrity.

If you have never attempted to make or create and operate a loudspeaker company on a daily basis, and that...at the cutting edge of the technology real loudspeaker work, ie, full understanding of all aspects, which goes from basic addition ..all the way to chaos theory and encompasses about 7 branches of physics....then you have no idea how difficult and expensive it is.

Essentially, it's cheap to copy when you have no idea what is actually going on. When you have to engage in a commercial enterprise to exceed the efforts of the folks who made this $20k speaker and have to compete in the same marketplace..rest assured.. your speakers will retail for the same $, if not more.

In the end, I am not attempting to get anyone angry, by verbally urinating in there general direction, but there is much ignorance here -ignorance of technological, financial, marketing, exporting, distribution, and 'long term stability and viability' of the given aspects.. of what it takes to get such audio equipment to market.

I hear alot of self justification and self created logic here that is not valid in the real world.

Please, do NOT dump on the manufacturers of such gear. Rest assured they are not doing it specifically for the money. They love music and they want to show you the best that can be done in terms of having that in your home. The nightmare of manufacturing high-end loudspeakers can practically kill people or drive them insane. It is not easy. the money is secondary and barely, if it does at all, cover up the pain and stress of trying to 'get it done'.

If the loudspeakers are being manufactured in a 'first world' economy, with carpenters getting about $20-25Us per hour, etc, then it is going to be an expensive speaker. I've seen guys sitting on floors in China, sorting washers by hand and then making $1 per pair binding posts in a single-by-single machining -hand run operation. How about watching a man die in the streets when he is run over by a car..and practically no-body noticing? I'm simply trying to show that there is mix of values and aspects here that is far from complete and understood in this little thread.

Suffice it to say, that if the full realities (all aspects) were known by all who are in this thread...then there would be a quiet respect for the manufacturer of the speaker..and then a quiet effort to copy it, with respect still intact, and remaining intact. Ignorance, willful or otherwise, breeds contempt. For all the wrong reasons.
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." - Carl Sagan. Sometimes the claims aren't extraordinary. Sometimes the weakness of men's minds are the culprit. Mass mentality has nothing to do with obviousness or truths.
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Old 15th December 2007, 06:30 PM   #96
float is offline float  England
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Sense at last. Amen brother.
I w isH i cuold typpe bettr
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Old 15th December 2007, 07:25 PM   #97
tpsorin is offline tpsorin  Romania
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********! 20k to make a speaker, is ********.

just use your common sense: compare the speaker with, lets say VW Passat.
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Old 15th December 2007, 07:26 PM   #98
Salas is offline Salas  Greece
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Originally posted by KBK
The statement about OEM costing being 3x less than that of retail is profoundly untrue.
I am sorry that you call me so easily a profound liar but I have personally handled imports and distribution from major European Prosound and Hi-Fi speaker manufactures for many years as I was employed in an established manufacturing and distribution company until late 2006. I repeat: Import cost for manufacturing or distribution of drivers from major first class companies is suggested retail/3. Either you like it / know it or not, It stands utterly and profoundly true.

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Old 15th December 2007, 08:17 PM   #99
limono is offline limono  United States
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Originally posted by tpsorin
********! 20k to make a speaker, is ********.

just use your common sense: compare the speaker with, lets say VW Passat.
No , its reality of small scale production for luxurious esoteric goods in developed world . I worked for cabinetmaker in a small wood shop. Custom kitchens cabinets from veneered plywood with a little better hardware than what you usually see in Mega Stores . The base price was $20k up (sometimes way up) .There is really not much engineering involved in a few screw-in square boxes. (basic CAD and variation on one theme) . The owner could not afford to hire me for a full time and I had to quit.
I agree that those mostly gifted audio engineers would earn way more money in industry (defense , automotive etc) than in audio.
Some say this is what gifted engineers actually do and all the rejects and misfits design audio . As to one poster saying that they almost die of struggle to bring the product to market -judging by the effects of their effort I'd let them die ...

Who and why is buying this kind of speakers ,I wonder .People who can afford $20k
on speakers don't live in shoe boxes .I don't see any advantages of mini monitors but size (questionable if you include massive stand ) Those inefficient little woofers must lump tons of distortion driven hard to get any sound out of them.
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Old 15th December 2007, 09:25 PM   #100
terry j is offline terry j  Australia
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and here I was thinking the magico mini uses sourced drivers (of course modified in a magical way) from companies totally willing to sell said drivers, uses crossover components from companies perfectly willing to sell those components, uses the latest technology in cutting to manufacture the laminations for the box...and all the while it's one guy doing ALL the development work on the drivers, builds the drivers and must make his own caps, inductors and resistors in house etc etc etc. Or did I totally misunderstand KBK's post?

And I also find out the cabinets are all hand made in the US paying a craftsman $25/hr..

what is it about my skeptical personality which continues to cry 'bull' in the face of such overwhelming evidence?

yep, let's compare the price for these speakers with a comparable motor vehicle as already mentioned.

The original post was 'can we manufacture a duplicate for less'. All sorts of reasons have been forwarded why we can't, even down to to the 'magical' glue used...if we can't get that right then we can not even come close because of the magical sonic qualities glue contributes. (puhlease)

Using the deqx and buying said stock drivers, (admittedly) a bit of hard work with a router and yes, I honestly do believe I can not only match the sound, I can better it. And with enough experimentation with x-over points and slopes, I can get it sounding perfect for MY ears and tastes.

How can I not do better?
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