Newbie questions - sorry!

[jwmbro]

OK, first off I'd like to apologize if I'm breaking any forum rules, or have missed some information and am asking obvious questions.
I tried my best to read through the first page, and try to search for some of the info I'm looking for, but since there is such a wealth of information here, it is hard to find exactly what I'm looking for, while at a level I can understand.

I was referred to this forum from another forum (silent pc review), where I was searching for a pair of speakers. I was looking at and listening to several makes, Klipsch, B&W, Nubert, Canton. It was suggested to me that I try to build my own speakers. That struck me as a reasonable suggestion, considering the amount of money that goes into development and advertisement when you buy brand-speakers.

Now, as the title already suggests, I have no experience at all with DIY-speakers, but I would be willing to give it a try. To start with the questions: Would it be sensible for me to try to build something? I have little or no woodworking experience, nor do I have any woodworking tools in my household. This is not to say I wouldn't be able to access any, it would just mean going to a carpentry shop, or relying on the helpfulness of my neighbours and friends.

From what I read, a high amount of precision is required to make your own speakers, would this be too much to expect of a first-timer like myself?

As for the design of the speakers themselves. If it were to be reasonable for me to build some - what kind should I be looking at? It's kind of hard to test-listen DIY-speakers, since you have to build them first . As for criteria, of course it is important that the speakers stay within my budget constraints (although this budget itself is variable, I was thinking along the lines of 200€ per speaker, including everything), and also important that the speakers sound good, and cover a wide frequency range. I enjoyed the sound of Klipsch reference speakers, with their horns, but I have been warned of listening fatigue with bright speakers like them. So maybe any speakers I build myself should be more "dull" - in other words a more accurate reproduction of the music. Or maybe it shouldn't - maybe bright horn sounds are the right thing for me. That's somewhat hard for me to determine at this point. And of course a third point to consider with the speakers is that they look good, and match my existing furniture and electronics.

The speakers will be used to play almost exclusively digital sources (CDs, FLACs, mp3s, DVDs, etc....) and I am planning to amplify them with my Yamaha RX-V659 (for now at least).

I think I'll call it quits with this post for now, I'm not sure what else to ask, or what other information to supply. Please ask me if you want me to clarify something, or supply additional information.

Thanks in advance for any feedback on any of my many questions.

[sdclc126]

First, welcome!

Second, no need to apologize for anything!

Third, yes build your own speakers!

Fourth, what and how? Expect many thoughts, opinions in the responses here, which is good. The best advice I can give you is to do some research and get educated, then build a proven design by someone who has been doing this for awhile - no need to start on your own and try to develop something from scratch - all the hard work has already been done for you.

Some of the best designers, with very educational sites, are:

www.zaphaudio.com

www.humblehomemadehifi.com

http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/Diy_Lou...r_Projects.htm

www.rjbaudio.com/projects.html
www.rjbaudio.com/Audiofiles/FRDtools.html

www.geocities.com/woove99/Spkrbldg/

As for parts suppliers for you, I'll leave that up to members who are more local, but don't be too concerned about building cabinets either - there are, at least in the states - many sources of pre-built cabinets, and you can also have the raw pieces cut for you at a lumber supplier, making assembly much easier, and cleaner!

Hope this helps - good luck!

[PigletsDad]

If you don't have woodworking tools or experience, some companies can sell you a kit with all the parts ready cut, or even complete cabinets ready for you to install the drivers, crossover and wiring.

This is a kind of middle ground between full DIY and buying a ready made speaker form a hi-fi shop. Less skills are needed, but you won't save so much money.

In the UK well known kit suppliers include Wilmslow Audio and IPL.

I see you are in Munich; I don't know who supplies loudspeaker kits in Germany, but I am sure there will be several companies, and I expect the UK companies can ship to you easily enough.

[MaVo]

i dont think its too difficult to assemble a basic closed or ported box. i started with no experience at all and managed to do that, with a little help from my friends. maybe it wont be perfect, but who cares. compared to what you can buy, it should be easy to build better. also, it can be a great satisfaction to see something you build with your own hands actually work. much more than simply buying speakers. the biggest problem will be to find and choose a good design. there are a thousand differend ideas of what is a good speaker. so, dont listen to comments like the one with the listening fatique, listen to you ears. what you like is the key to find the right thing, not what other people think you should like.

if you like the horns, maybe high efficient speakers are your thing. a diy version of this would be a professional 10-15 inch woofer (bms, 18sound, b&c ...) with a good compression driver on a constant directivity waveguide. crossover around 1000hz. the woofer could be on an open baffle, in a closed or ported box, depending on what you like. this kind of system would need some eq for the compression driver and for the woofer if in an open baffle, but apart from that, it should be fun and easy to do.

[PeteMcK]

for kits in Germany, check these out:

http://www.lautsprechershop.de/
http://www.visaton.com/en/bauvorschlaege/index.html

"a high amount of precision is required to make your own speakers"... while the discussions on this site may give that impression, building loudspeakers isn't rocket science, understanding why things are done in a certain way is far more important...

[sdclc126]

Good advice, all. I've built loudspeaker cabinets by HAND CUTTING the panels with a basic saw - perfect? Of course not, but your first project shouldn't have that goal - it's to get you started in the hobby and a platform from which to improve in the future.

Good drivers and a decent crossover will still give you excellent sound, and finishing the cabinets can be done very cheaply, with paint, self-adhesive vinyl veneers, etc.

[jwmbro]

Hello, everybody!
Thank you very much for all the information so far, it's been very helpful to me. And now I have several more questions.

sdclc126, thank you for the links, some of those I had seen already, and some of those were new grounds to me.

Originally posted by PigletsDad
If you don't have woodworking tools or experience, some companies can sell you a kit with all the parts ready cut, or even complete cabinets ready for you to install the drivers, crossover and wiring.

This is a kind of middle ground between full DIY and buying a ready made speaker form a hi-fi shop. Less skills are needed, but you won't save so much money.

Yes. I had indeed been considering something similar in concept to this - either buying pre-made cabinets, or paying a carpenter a medium sized sum to cut the pieces for me, or paying an aquaintance of mine who happens to be a carpenter, or a at least a hobbyist, a smaller sum to help me cut the pieces.

One thing that deters me somewhat from this idea is that the savings compared to store-bought hifi are not so great anymore, yet I still lose out on the benefit of previewing the speakers in a store before I buy them. So I could potentially end up spending 75% the amount I would have spent for my brand-name speakers, and having something I don't like the sound of.

Originally posted by MaVo
the biggest problem will be to find and choose a good design. there are a thousand differend ideas of what is a good speaker. so, dont listen to comments like the one with the listening fatique, listen to you ears. what you like is the key to find the right thing, not what other people think you should like.

I do try to listen to what my ears tell me, as opposed to what other people tell me. However, I am currently home sick (since monday evening) with a killer headache, and a bit of a fever, though the headache is the more disturbing part. And that has me thinking - everytime when I listen to a couple hours of music, and the headache gets worse - "wouldn't it be nice to have some speakers with very little listening fatigue in situations like this... ? ".

And as for the listen to your ears part, that's all and good with storebought speakers, but I can't really preview homemade speakers withouth building them first. There is of course the option of returning the components within the first 14 days - the so-called FAG - a law in Germany allowing you to return online purchases after up to 14 days if you're not content. Sure, I'd be eating the loss for the wood, but that would probably be bearable.... probably - more questions on this later.

Originally posted by MaVo
if you like the horns, maybe high efficient speakers are your thing. a diy version of this would be a professional 10-15 inch woofer (bms, 18sound, b&c ...) with a good compression driver on a constant directivity waveguide. crossover around 1000hz. the woofer could be on an open baffle, in a closed or ported box, depending on what you like. this kind of system would need some eq for the compression driver and for the woofer if in an open baffle, but apart from that, it should be fun and easy to do.

Yes. I have in fact already stumbled over one build that looks to me to be within my capacity of building, and also in my price range:
Fast, fun, Inexpensive OB project by panomaniac.
However it is pretty big, and I don't have unlimited space in my room, nor a big enough room for some huge speakers - I think.

Besides, I'm sure 10"+ woofers are capable of pumping out lots of low frequency power, which is not necessarily something the neighbours will appreciate.
I'm not certain how exact the correlation between bigger driver and louder deeper bass is, but I'm sure it plays a non-negligible role.
Listening to speakers in stores, 5" was a little bit small, but 6.5" seemed deep and filling enough. Not to say I wouldn't take more if it cost the same, and was the same size, but using 12" woofers in a closed box takes you up to 3ft^3 boxes from what I read, which isn't exactly a bookshelf speaker anymore.

PeteMcK, Thanks for the links. I've seen the first one already, but the second was new for me.

And back to the matter of wood - can someone in germany tell me how much I could expect to pay for some MDF or birchwood. Or is birchwood even a good idea? The reason why I say it is because all my furniture is light-coloured birch, so that would be a nice match.
I would go out and research prices myself, but as I mentioned earlier I am unfortunately bedridden - or at least homeridden.

Another aspect: Is it possible / recommended to have a mesh screen covering the drivers, like on commercial speakers? I would feel somewhat comforted knowing I had that little bit of extra protection (if it is protection?)

One more question not quite on the topic of the thread, but something that interests me nonetheless. What is the difference between HiFi speakers and PA-Speakers, and is it possible to DIY PA-speakers also?

I think that's it sofar... TIA!

[John Bsuch]

Hello Klankymen....

What is really important is the basic question: are you game to design and build your own speaker. There are so many fine offerings of an increadibly wide range of commercial offerings.... and their invested work and manufacturing efficienies are more than enough to offset any cost gains you may realize in fabricating your own creation. Some may argue this and that's fine. But on balance that is the reality.

Your other main challenge is to find the kind of speaker you like the sound of. You need to listen and look at what you really like. Monitor dynamic.... or laid back subtle..... or edgey.... Best loud.... best soft.... most musical.... like your mate..... just because you like and love your mate.... doesn't mean the next person will be so inclined. So as usual with most things in life it comes down to research and experience. No real short cuts..... you get out what you put in. OK ... end of soap box.

So.... what are your deal breakers in terms of cost.... size ..... cosmetics..... keeping in mind the general stuff I blurted out in the prolog above.

BTW... I am the designer of the Inexpesive OB project that Panomainac graciously posted as a potential design for listeners who wanted to build their own simple and musical speaker. Not a world beater.... but simple.... and effective for small rooms at moderate play back levels.

Hopefully these thoughts will help you in your quest and put you in the direction that makes the most sense for you.... given your personal realities.

Good luck with your effort and please let the rest of us know what direction you decide on.

[Kinnja]

Originally posted by sdclc126
......perfect? Of course not, but your first project shouldn't have that goal......

As a fellow noob, I agree with that whole heartedly.

[MaVo]

I doubt the concept of listening fatigue. if you listen at loud volume, you will get a headache sooner or later, it wont matter where the loud volume comes from. the "low distortion = low fatigue" argument is shallow, since music is build of what you call distortion if a speaker produces it - a lot of harmonics. so listen at a small volume, if you listen long, thats better for the ears. maybe it produces fatigue to listen to speakers with huge peaks in the response, but if you build them with some thought, that wont happen.

The fun ob project really looks nice, but if you want to safe space, a closed box could be usefull, since you dont need to put it too far away from the walls and you can use a smaller woofer. second option to safe space is cabinet with a higher cutoff frequency = less bass. volume needed for bass is what makes them big. look for woofers with a small VAS value, since they can be placed in a smaller cabinet.

i would use plywood (multiplex in deutsch). it costs about 10-20 euro per squaremeter in your local baumarkt. 15mm is great.

meshscreen could be acoustically large for high frequencies, thus messing with the response. i doubt you can easily destroy a good pa woofer.

the difference between hifi and pa is not easy to tell. the main difference could be the purpose of it. if the designer had huge crowds in mind then its a pa speaker. generally (only speaking of quality speakers) pa speakers are efficient, have a high headroom and not so much bass extension as a hifi speaker. they will sound less distorted at most levels because of that. pa speakers are build to do a job not to look good.

i would go for bigger drivers, which translates into less distortion. if you use a 10inch pa midbass from a good producer like beyma, 18sound, eminence, bms, b&c, you wont have much bass below 50hz or so, but the cabinet could be small, the distortion will be low and you could add a small sub later. the music is in the > 50hz frequencies (one could debate over that statement ). sacrificing the low bass could be the better option, since you can easily add a subwoofer, which can be hidden somewhere in the room. sacrificing overall performance to get bass frequncies out of the main speakers sounds not so great for me.