10" driver for Bass tower in Horn project

[angeloitacare]

hi

i want to built a 4 way Horn system.

mid bass will be a fane studio8m in a 88cm diameter MDF tractrix horn 150hz - 1khz
mid radian 950pb in a 49cm MDF diameter tractrix horn
1khz - 8khz
tweeter jbl 2405 slot

below 150hz i want to use 4 10" woofers on each side in a bass tower.

any suggestions of woofer models ?

the one i most like at the moment is a beyma

10LW30/N

http://profesional.beyma.com/ENGLISH/producto.php

Angelo

my blog:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/12312992@N07/page1/

 

[Brett]

What exactly are you trying to achieve? LF (150 - what)? sealed or ported? max box volume? SPL?

 

[tinitus]

Fore such an impressive setup you need better bass than any 10" PA driver can manage ... at least 15"

But with an 4-6 driver array you could easily find a 10-12" hifi woofer

http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=147&products_id=8304

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=296-430

 

[Brett]

Fore such an impressive setup you need better bass than any 10" PA driver can manage ... at least 15"

That's what I was thinking. Need to move lots of air by minimal diaphram displacement so that it stays low distortion and doesn't draw attention ti itself in not being horn loaded. With a similar-ish type setup, my plan was to use 4x18, sealed and LT'd to get 40 or 50Hz Q=0.5, then cross to dedicated tapped horn subs.
Shelved the project as I look like I'll be in this smaller house for a few more years yet.

 

[tinitus]

A single 15-18" woofer wont move that much ... its in the sub region below 50hz that you need multiple driver

 

[Brett]

A single 15-18" woofer wont move that much ... its in the sub region below 50hz that you need multiple driver

Depends on your definition of loud (my home up north is huge open plan space) and low distortion. Those horns are going to have prodigious output capacity and clarity and messing up sub 150 will be audible.

I'd only do push-push now to get mechanical vibration cancellation, so at minimum a pair/side would be needed.

 

[angeloitacare]

i don't want the bass tower to be too big. Acapella uses in their basstower also 10" drivers, sealed, probably Dynaudio.

Next choice i was thinking is the next bigger model, Beyma 12" LX60 in a sealed enclosure, 60l - 80l volume for each woofer.

Since i pretend to drive them active with a plate amp, no subwoofer might be needed, since i can equalize the lowest frequencies.

A idea would be also to use 2 Beymas in the bass region, above 40 hz, and use 2 subwoofers for the lowest bass.

Any suggestion ?

Angelo

 

[tinitus]

Using a PA 12" like that in closed and then boost low frequencies will leave you with a dip/bump in low midbass ... when using a simple plate amp as EQ

So why dont you do like the Acapella you refer to, and what I suggested in the first place ... use good 10-12" HIFI woofers with appropriate sensitivity around 90db and nice low Fs ... 6 each side should do

 

[angeloitacare]

there is also a studio bass from beyma, which i heard good comments about it: the 12B100-R

http://www.toutlehautparleur.com/beyma-studio/beyma-12b100r-p-854.html

http://www.fullrange-speakers.com/eng/index.php?p=komplettsysteme/zarah

might be better then the lx60 ?

 

[ScottG]

Ah, so what you really want is a bass array - and likely a sealed driver bass array that works to 40 Hz in room without to much volume or excursion.

It looks cheap, but it isn't..

Try modeling this driver:

http://www.eminence.com/guitar_speaker_detail.asp?model=LEGENDBP102&speaker_size=10&SUB_CAT_ID=5

 

[tinitus]

So that the the new B102, interesting
The older one was with cast chassis, but at least it seems suited fore closed

But honestly ... a huge 4way system that only barely reaches 40hz

 

[angeloitacare]

the eminence is 12 db down at 50hz. the bass array must go as deep as possible..... and, at the same time, be fast and punchy in the 80hz region..... avantgarde uses the 12" lx60 in many of their speakers..... must not be so bad in the upper bass then ?

 

[tinitus]

Thats strange ... I get the BP102 to be 6db down at 40hz and not 12db at 50hz

It doesnt matter what they do with commercial speakers ... they have to meet some severe limitations and compromises ... in unlimited diy we may do better

The 12" Beyma seems to be 12db down at 40hz, but with higher efficiency

Yeah, they are strange animals, those PA drivers

 

[el`Ol]

This one is light.
http://oaudio.de/media/products/0858912001142441015.pdf
But don´t talk about Vas.

 

[ScottG]

the eminence is 12 db down at 50hz. the bass array must go as deep as possible..... and, at the same time, be fast and punchy in the 80hz region..... avantgarde uses the 12" lx60 in many of their speakers..... must not be so bad in the upper bass then ?

In a 53 liter sealed enclosure the driver is -7 db at 40 Hz.. so basically a 12 inch "cube" baffle with a box depth of 24-26 inches. (..obviously stacked vertically with 4 drivers/boxes.)

Considering room-gain you probably are only down - 3db at 40 Hz. If that isn't good enough then you either need eq. and a LOT of excursion in your driver, OR a vented solution with an attending increase in group delay.

The LX60 is a very nice driver - for a vented enclosure (..and so is the B&CTBX100).

Moreover remember that a vented solution won't extend nearly as deep in freq. (for a given spl) as a sealed solution. That Eminence driver and 53 liter enclosure will still have a useful output at 10 Hz and below (especially when factoring room gain).

 

[ScottG]

If you are prepared to give up some efficiency and detail then look to the Lab sub drivers from Eminence or the Dayton Reference sub series. Also the Dayton DVC sub drivers work well to - in fact I'd probably choose either one (10 or 12) before the "Lab" or "Reference" drivers for this solution (..though I'd still choose the Legend driver - which would be more dynamic and detailed).

Note though that they have a MUCH heavier mms (the "Lab" and "Reference", not so much the DVC series). Subjectively you will gain "slam" and "kick" at the expense of dynamic "drive" and detail.

 

[Brett]

If you are prepared to give up some efficiency and detail then look to the Lab sub drivers from Eminence or the Dayton Reference sub series.

Note though that they have a MUCH heavier mms. Subjectively you will gain "slam" and "kick" at the expense of dynamic "drive" and detail.

I wouldn't use a LAB above 100Hz. they sound very lacking in detail.

I'd suggest that Angelo xovers actively and bi or triamps.

As mentioned above, I did a design mockup with a pair of midbass, and midhorns similar to the Goliath. I actually used the Goliath dravings as an inspiration. With a bit of creative shaping wotk, I got 4 x 18 in two stacked enclosures, push-push, designed so that they fitted around the throats of the horns, drivers facing sideways and jsut a bit narrower thn the MB horn, so they took up little floor area more than a rectangle based upon the width and depth of the MB horn. They were about 100mm deeper and the two enclosures totalled 420L and the top one angled back so that the MF horn could be pkysically time aligned and angled down towards the listening position.

 

[angeloitacare]

what waked my interest is that Romy uses a similar woofer

than the ciare


http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=148&products_id=951

since i can get all products of ciare at cost, i could get these quit cheap. However, i have not experience with hi-fi woofers.

What i am in doubt, how can these deliver a punch in the upperbass region, with such a weak motor ? the beymas give me more confidence in this regard.

 

[Brett]

what waked my interest is that Romy uses a similar woofer

So what.

Ciare makes excellent drivers, better than overpriced 'phile junk.

 

[angeloitacare]

i know i know

i visit ciare factory. i know their speakers. very nice built quality indeed. unfortunately , i have no experience with these woofers for home use.