Hi,
I was wondering, whether the Dynaudio Esotar 330 can hold up - or potentially outperform - meaurement wise those recently developed tweeters from Peerless, Scanspeak, Seas etc.
As an evidence grade B I would also "accept" an "expert-opinion" of someone, who has auditioned the Esotar and current top-line tweeter...
Can anyone help me?
I would be extremely thankful for answers!
Best regards
Leif
I was wondering, whether the Dynaudio Esotar 330 can hold up - or potentially outperform - meaurement wise those recently developed tweeters from Peerless, Scanspeak, Seas etc.
As an evidence grade B I would also "accept" an "expert-opinion" of someone, who has auditioned the Esotar and current top-line tweeter...
Can anyone help me?
I would be extremely thankful for answers!
Best regards
Leif
I have both the Esotar T330D and the Seas Millenium. I think a subjective comparison is very difficult, if possible. Unless there are two identical speakers with the difference of only the tweeters, and both responses are tailored to be the same, and we listen to it on axis in a highly dampped room. The Seas Millenium has only a 110mm diameter, wherease the Esotar T330D has a 140mm diameter, so they won't fit into the same panel cut.
My preference is the Esotar but don't like its larger diameter, but since the tweeters are mounted in completely different speakers so bluntly saying the Esotar is better can be very wrong. Possibly the midwoofers' contribution in the XO region has more influence to the perceived "tweeter sound" than that from the tweeter.
So I would be rather interested in any objective measurements comparing the Esotar to other good modern tweeters.
Regards,
Bill
My preference is the Esotar but don't like its larger diameter, but since the tweeters are mounted in completely different speakers so bluntly saying the Esotar is better can be very wrong. Possibly the midwoofers' contribution in the XO region has more influence to the perceived "tweeter sound" than that from the tweeter.
So I would be rather interested in any objective measurements comparing the Esotar to other good modern tweeters.
Regards,
Bill
?
I have got the ECM8000 mic, soundcard, etc. I am only in the process of learning to set up Speaker Workshop to do some impedance and FR measurements. I have no experience yet measuring anything including doing distortion tests. I will possibly do it one day. My wife has gone away for a few days leaving 3 kids all under 7 to me, so everything has to be put aside for the time being.
Regards,
Bill
Regards,
Bill
Subjectively, in my very well implemented WWMTMWW speaker with the peerless HDS 5" mid, the sound from the Esotar crossed at 3k, 4th order LR was so nice (light, airy and smooth even in high power passages) that the tweeter did not appear to EXIST, just music, no colouring.
The Seas Millenium is installed in the NaO. The midwoofer SS8545 6.5" is not as smooth as the HDS 5" in the 2k to 4k region and the XO point is around 2.3kHz so I found the "tweeter" performance is not as good as the Esotar. But who knows, as said, I believe the SS8545's imfluence may be greater than the Seas Millenium in the perceived tweeter sound.
Then I guess the Seas Millenium might be better than the new Peerless tweeter based on my impression from listening to the later. But once again, completely different speakers and set up so this is far from any conclusion. From Zath's site, I guess the HDS would be more useful than the Seas because of its higher sensitivity at 93dB. For me, the Seas has 87dB sensitivity only and I don't like systems to be that inefficient.
But blindly, I would take the Esotar due to its over spec construction, high power handling, and high sensitivity at 93dB. The large face plate will force the XO to be low, though.
The Seas Millenium is installed in the NaO. The midwoofer SS8545 6.5" is not as smooth as the HDS 5" in the 2k to 4k region and the XO point is around 2.3kHz so I found the "tweeter" performance is not as good as the Esotar. But who knows, as said, I believe the SS8545's imfluence may be greater than the Seas Millenium in the perceived tweeter sound.
Then I guess the Seas Millenium might be better than the new Peerless tweeter based on my impression from listening to the later. But once again, completely different speakers and set up so this is far from any conclusion. From Zath's site, I guess the HDS would be more useful than the Seas because of its higher sensitivity at 93dB. For me, the Seas has 87dB sensitivity only and I don't like systems to be that inefficient.
But blindly, I would take the Esotar due to its over spec construction, high power handling, and high sensitivity at 93dB. The large face plate will force the XO to be low, though.
Thanks again Bill, good luck with your kids...
I would - from a theoretical point of view - completely agree to your analysis. I think unlinearities in the 1k to 5k region are extremely audible (I am a cello-player and no classical (7''+1'') 2-way design ever reprodced a "natural" sound of strings - I suppose due to IMD and cone problems of mid-woofers >1k).
So maybe, we will see. I just might build an all Dynaudio System (I have a 30w, d76 and an esotar in spe...)
Regards,
Leif
I would - from a theoretical point of view - completely agree to your analysis. I think unlinearities in the 1k to 5k region are extremely audible (I am a cello-player and no classical (7''+1'') 2-way design ever reprodced a "natural" sound of strings - I suppose due to IMD and cone problems of mid-woofers >1k).
So maybe, we will see. I just might build an all Dynaudio System (I have a 30w, d76 and an esotar in spe...)
Regards,
Leif
Personally I find it impossible to judge individual tweeters. I find it easier to judge whole systems.
It is probably difficult to judge a tweeter fairly when they are in different speakers. There are just too many confounding factors.
The best we can do is to have the different tweeters installed in the same speakers, with the same crossover point/slope and to modify the crossover to yield the same on-axis frequency response.
But even then differences in linear and non-linear distortion, off axis/power response, impedance swing etc may contribute to the way they sound different.
One tweeter may measure "worse" in a certain parameter, but it may be better in another. When they are closely matched, why do we prefer one to the other?
Which is the best tyre for my sports car?
regards,
Thanh.
It is probably difficult to judge a tweeter fairly when they are in different speakers. There are just too many confounding factors.
The best we can do is to have the different tweeters installed in the same speakers, with the same crossover point/slope and to modify the crossover to yield the same on-axis frequency response.
But even then differences in linear and non-linear distortion, off axis/power response, impedance swing etc may contribute to the way they sound different.
One tweeter may measure "worse" in a certain parameter, but it may be better in another. When they are closely matched, why do we prefer one to the other?
Which is the best tyre for my sports car?
regards,
Thanh.
Preliminary Data
I did it... started to work myself through ARTA; not so difficult at all: However, I cannot save in the demo mode and post the results.
I did not calibrate the setup. I just did a quick an dirty AB t330d vs. Peerless WA10 with my Schoeps mk21 microphone (which is a 1/2'' wide cardioid and therefore not completely linear and shows significant beaming at >10k...)
Here we go:
The frequency response is almost identical to the WA10; yet the WA10 shows some fluctuations in the 10k> region. Since the mk21 is not calibrated I will post a freq-response, as soon as my measurement mic (MBHO MN550) arrives.
Off axis is as expected.
The data do not completely fit the Dynaudio specs. That is probably my mic.
Distortion level is at 2.83V <0.3%. That's good I suppose
Did not do a waterfall yet.
I will use it with my D76 and cut the faceplate of the t330. I also measured, that bringing both units close until the magnets are side by side does not change the distortion level. I therefore suppose, it is ok to bring speakers as close as possible without having trouble.
Best
I did it... started to work myself through ARTA; not so difficult at all: However, I cannot save in the demo mode and post the results.
I did not calibrate the setup. I just did a quick an dirty AB t330d vs. Peerless WA10 with my Schoeps mk21 microphone (which is a 1/2'' wide cardioid and therefore not completely linear and shows significant beaming at >10k...)
Here we go:
The frequency response is almost identical to the WA10; yet the WA10 shows some fluctuations in the 10k> region. Since the mk21 is not calibrated I will post a freq-response, as soon as my measurement mic (MBHO MN550) arrives.
Off axis is as expected.
The data do not completely fit the Dynaudio specs. That is probably my mic.
Distortion level is at 2.83V <0.3%. That's good I suppose
Did not do a waterfall yet.
I will use it with my D76 and cut the faceplate of the t330. I also measured, that bringing both units close until the magnets are side by side does not change the distortion level. I therefore suppose, it is ok to bring speakers as close as possible without having trouble.
Best
The THD of modern "expensive" tweeters like the Scanspeaks or Excels is typically in the range from 0.1% to 0.3%. However the Scanspeak ringradiator and the Hiquphon OW I have a K2 in the range above.
So I think that's more or less equal to what the Esotar does.
I cannot really see any "major" improvements in the newer designs measurement wise. They are different, but always better? Smaller magnets for closer mounting is the place, where improvements would be very helpful.
And a larger choice on 2'', 0.7'' and even 0.5'' domes would be helpful at least for me...
But I can see a lot of improvement in the low price segment of the market. Tweeters like the Peerless WA10 were almost great, but tweeters like the number one DT25 (according to published test data someone mentioned to me in another thread) drive the limit even a bit further. Isn't that great?
I suppose, that probably any linear tweeter with distortion <0.3% and a resonance free decay is very good.
Best,
Leif
So I think that's more or less equal to what the Esotar does.
I cannot really see any "major" improvements in the newer designs measurement wise. They are different, but always better? Smaller magnets for closer mounting is the place, where improvements would be very helpful.
And a larger choice on 2'', 0.7'' and even 0.5'' domes would be helpful at least for me...
But I can see a lot of improvement in the low price segment of the market. Tweeters like the Peerless WA10 were almost great, but tweeters like the number one DT25 (according to published test data someone mentioned to me in another thread) drive the limit even a bit further. Isn't that great?
I suppose, that probably any linear tweeter with distortion <0.3% and a resonance free decay is very good.
Best,
Leif
I have measured around 0.03-0.05% THD at aprox. 90dB and 0.1% THD at 100dB in some tweeters. This above 3k I should add. Will check in the low (2k range) as well.
I have a couple of T330D myself but I have not measured them and have not used them myself for years (they are playing in my moms house).
The drivers mentioned is custom Seas, Dynaudio and Accuton.
/Peter
I have a couple of T330D myself but I have not measured them and have not used them myself for years (they are playing in my moms house).
The drivers mentioned is custom Seas, Dynaudio and Accuton.
/Peter
Can't comment for custom made drivers. Great if you own one ! But for what I have seen typically in magazines, a THD<0.3% seems to be somehow a "magical limit" for most drivers (not all...).
Anyway. I continued to measure with the new mic today. The Esotar is within +-1dB until 15k (where roll of starts) except from a 3dB peak around 10-11kHz. I think that's the magic behind its "airy sound". THD is below 0.3% from 1800Hz on. K3 shows a peak at 4200Hz reaching 0.2%.
Can post it has jpg the next days.
I am a little bit puzzled, that the peak correlates to the theoretical diaphrgm diameter as derived from the effective cone area. Resonance damping issues? Such a peak is not visible in the Dynaudio protocol.
Hmm... but the mic seems to be alright, according to its protocol. Can't find that peak, but a higher one, on the WA10...
I will investigate this.
Best,
Leif
! But for what I have seen typically in magazines, a THD<0.3% seems to be somehow a "magical limit" for most drivers (not all...).Anyway. I continued to measure with the new mic today. The Esotar is within +-1dB until 15k (where roll of starts) except from a 3dB peak around 10-11kHz. I think that's the magic behind its "airy sound". THD is below 0.3% from 1800Hz on. K3 shows a peak at 4200Hz reaching 0.2%.
Can post it has jpg the next days.
I am a little bit puzzled, that the peak correlates to the theoretical diaphrgm diameter as derived from the effective cone area. Resonance damping issues? Such a peak is not visible in the Dynaudio protocol.
Hmm... but the mic seems to be alright, according to its protocol. Can't find that peak, but a higher one, on the WA10...
I will investigate this.
Best,
Leif
I have some stock Accutons, the special drivers belongs to some friends. We also measured a pair of SS9700 which was worse than the rest of the bunch.. around 0.3%THD.
I/we are preparing a big measurement session this summer with a bunch of tweeters. I'll try to get the T330D in there as well.
Will measure flush mount on a big baffle and also measure thermal and acoustic compression.
/Peter
I/we are preparing a big measurement session this summer with a bunch of tweeters. I'll try to get the T330D in there as well.
Will measure flush mount on a big baffle and also measure thermal and acoustic compression.
/Peter
Sorry, but didn't you say that your mic is not calibrated ?
To me, seamless integration with the rest of the system in the crossover(polar response, phase relationships) seems much more important than running after extremely low THD. Of course, better-than-decent performance tweeters assumed.
Cheers!
To me, seamless integration with the rest of the system in the crossover(polar response, phase relationships) seems much more important than running after extremely low THD. Of course, better-than-decent performance tweeters assumed.
Cheers!
I used the MBHO MN550. Do you think I measure the THD of the mic itself?
I used pink noise for the frequency response and 1/12 octave sine steps for distortion. I used the Behringer DCX DA converters, may be I should have used the RME fireface DA converters.
The Schoeps has in fact +-2dB tolerance. But the THD was not altered too much. May be my 2.8V were inacurate; but since things are logarithmically it is unlikely to be off in terms of SPL towards an increase in SPL.
If I switch to gated MLS, the story may become different for the top octave. I will try that later that week. On the other hand, I conducted measurements between 2cm and 100cm distance, and the 10k peak shows up on any measurement. So I think that is a somehow reliable result. I "pseudo flush mounted" the tweeter using wood and sheets of paper lying on the floor to have an even surface of about 60cmx60cm. The low end is therefore not reliable I think. I measured with and without faceplate. Without faceplate, there is a broader increase from 9k to 14k.
The 10k peak shows up on axis and until 45degree off axis.
A peak at 10k would be unusual for a 1/4'' microphone, wouldn't it.
Also, the peak does not show up on the WA10, with the WA 10, there is a peak around 12k...
The MBHO comes with a ruler flat frequency response graph. I got it yesterday from the manufacturer.
I cannot comment for the Accuton. From what I see on Zaph's homepage they are not better than the rest in that range of price.
Which microphone are you using? I simply don't feel like buying a microtech gefell mk3xx series microphone to solve that whole issue....
Best,
Leif
I used pink noise for the frequency response and 1/12 octave sine steps for distortion. I used the Behringer DCX DA converters, may be I should have used the RME fireface DA converters.
The Schoeps has in fact +-2dB tolerance. But the THD was not altered too much. May be my 2.8V were inacurate; but since things are logarithmically it is unlikely to be off in terms of SPL towards an increase in SPL.
If I switch to gated MLS, the story may become different for the top octave. I will try that later that week. On the other hand, I conducted measurements between 2cm and 100cm distance, and the 10k peak shows up on any measurement. So I think that is a somehow reliable result. I "pseudo flush mounted" the tweeter using wood and sheets of paper lying on the floor to have an even surface of about 60cmx60cm. The low end is therefore not reliable I think. I measured with and without faceplate. Without faceplate, there is a broader increase from 9k to 14k.
The 10k peak shows up on axis and until 45degree off axis.
A peak at 10k would be unusual for a 1/4'' microphone, wouldn't it.
Also, the peak does not show up on the WA10, with the WA 10, there is a peak around 12k...
The MBHO comes with a ruler flat frequency response graph. I got it yesterday from the manufacturer.
I cannot comment for the Accuton. From what I see on Zaph's homepage they are not better than the rest in that range of price.
Which microphone are you using? I simply don't feel like buying a microtech gefell mk3xx series microphone to solve that whole issue....
Best,
Leif
Googled that mic of yours but didn' find anything. Doubt that the mic would be so non-linear though.
I use Earthworks QTC1.
The pair of C23 I measured was around 0.1%THD at spot frequencies 2-4-8-16kHz (4V rms = 93dB). A 9700 was about 0.3% and also had double the thermal compression.
People often refer to Zaph's site but even looking at those graphs the C23 looks like one of the best to my eyes.
/Peter
I use Earthworks QTC1.
The pair of C23 I measured was around 0.1%THD at spot frequencies 2-4-8-16kHz (4V rms = 93dB). A 9700 was about 0.3% and also had double the thermal compression.
People often refer to Zaph's site but even looking at those graphs the C23 looks like one of the best to my eyes.
/Peter
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.