I'm on the search for the best crossover parts (capacitors, inductors and resistors) no matter the cost.
I started off thinking that Mundorf was the best choice but seen that that's not the case. Lately I've heard of Audio Note and Jensen for capacitors and inductors and Caddock and Mills for resistors.
Could you please shed some light on this issue?
I started off thinking that Mundorf was the best choice but seen that that's not the case. Lately I've heard of Audio Note and Jensen for capacitors and inductors and Caddock and Mills for resistors.
Could you please shed some light on this issue?
Where the rubber meets the road...
I haven't bought any Duelund parts. My pockets aren't that deep. I have owned and used "premium" parts from several vendors and they always sound different and in many cases better than their cheaper counterpart.
Like everything else, you can ask for everyone's opinion, or you can buy and find out for yourself, which is what I recommend. No one can tell you what the best midrange driver sounds like or is. You have to try until you find something you can live with and what your pocketbook allows.
http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html
Tony has tested most of the premium stuff...and their is a nice translation from a Chinese mag about caps.
http://www.vhaudio.com/21capacitorshootout.pdf
C
I haven't bought any Duelund parts. My pockets aren't that deep. I have owned and used "premium" parts from several vendors and they always sound different and in many cases better than their cheaper counterpart.
Like everything else, you can ask for everyone's opinion, or you can buy and find out for yourself, which is what I recommend. No one can tell you what the best midrange driver sounds like or is. You have to try until you find something you can live with and what your pocketbook allows.
http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html
Tony has tested most of the premium stuff...and their is a nice translation from a Chinese mag about caps.
http://www.vhaudio.com/21capacitorshootout.pdf
C
I wander if any golden ear out there will be able to hear the difference between a most expensive capacitor and, say Solen polypropylene. Blindfolded of cause.
Speaker wire makes very little difference if any. It should be proper gage. Your connections to the woofer and terminals are much more important.
I’ve seen a few times already, then people get expensive drivers, and the rest of the electronics and get crappy results.
Speaker wire makes very little difference if any. It should be proper gage. Your connections to the woofer and terminals are much more important.
I’ve seen a few times already, then people get expensive drivers, and the rest of the electronics and get crappy results.
crossover parts
If costs are no problem then I suggest you go active. Especially if you like fidelity rather than coloration. This is the best way to get the best of your speakers. For the price of the most expensive passive crossover parts you will be able to built a good active two way crossover and probably enough change to build half of some mid-power two channel PA.
If your system is three way you may go for a first order passive crossover (difficult to get it wrong) from midrange to tweeter. My experience here is similar to R-Carpenter. Sufficiently thick wires, good but sensibly priced caps such as Solen or similar, good connectors (and if necessary resistors) are absolutely sufficient to built a good passive crossover.
I cannot hear a difference between Solen 630V caps I'm usually using and snake oil caps no matter how expensive. Not so perfect passive crossovers (especially higher order), however, generate distortions in "cooperation" with PAs and drivers. Keep in mind that even the best passive crossovers are not so perfect.
The difference between active and passive system, however, is heard by almost anyone at higher listening levels.
cheers,
If costs are no problem then I suggest you go active. Especially if you like fidelity rather than coloration. This is the best way to get the best of your speakers. For the price of the most expensive passive crossover parts you will be able to built a good active two way crossover and probably enough change to build half of some mid-power two channel PA.
If your system is three way you may go for a first order passive crossover (difficult to get it wrong) from midrange to tweeter. My experience here is similar to R-Carpenter. Sufficiently thick wires, good but sensibly priced caps such as Solen or similar, good connectors (and if necessary resistors) are absolutely sufficient to built a good passive crossover.
I cannot hear a difference between Solen 630V caps I'm usually using and snake oil caps no matter how expensive. Not so perfect passive crossovers (especially higher order), however, generate distortions in "cooperation" with PAs and drivers. Keep in mind that even the best passive crossovers are not so perfect.
The difference between active and passive system, however, is heard by almost anyone at higher listening levels.
cheers,
I can't imagine ever going back to passive crossovers. A properly done active system has so many advantages including efficient power use, detail, clarity, lack of coloration, lack of expensive snake oil parts, and straightforward design. Even though my 3-way system isn't all that fancy or expensive (Morel tweets, Dynaudio midbass), or even all that good right now (I had to replace my good but aging woofers with something only so-so), every time I hear even a high end passive system, it has obvious flaws I'd have a hard time living with. Why would anybody spend hundreds of dollars on capacitors, and a bunch more on the world's worst component (inductors), when an active could be built for the same price?
Several times over the years blind tests using identical speakers, with one set having expensive crossover parts and the other set using cheap parts, have been conducted and the results have always indicated that if the speaker with the expensive parts isn't identified, nobody can hear any difference. All this presupposes that the "values" of the components measure the same. Nonpolar electrolytic caps, ElCheapo wirewound resistors and inexpensive inductors work fine for most "realworld" home applications. If PA work is contemplated with lots of watts on a sustained basis, then yes, expensive parts are indicated. I didn't say better, although if they handle the tasks presented in a more controlled fashion, then by definition, they are better.
The only justifications that make sense are that tighter tolerances are usually maintained on the spendy stuff.
Resistors with 1% tolerances or even half of that usually cost more as they have been selected and the rest are marked anywhere from 5% to 20% and sold for less.
NonPolar electrolytic caps can sound just fine, again the tighter tolerances of the more exotic varieties adds to the cost. Also 'Litics values tend to drift, sometimes quite a lot, over time which indicates that cheap PP's may be better in the long run.
Inductors are pretty obvious, copper by the pound is expensive, and the smaller gauges usually have a higher DCR for a given value. Iron Core Inductors by their nature have far lower DCR than Air Core and if the core doesn't become saturated from high power, they're just fine. One dirty little secret is that many times the designer will use the high DCR as part of the design, so it can actually save money and work exactly as planned. A real win-win solution!
Of all the components in a crossover, the only one's that seem to give themselves away (in a normal home situation) are the inductors if they're too small a gauge.
Use all the neat $tuff you can afford, the bragging rights may be worth it, but don't automatically assume that it's going to sound better.
Best Regards,
TerryO
The only justifications that make sense are that tighter tolerances are usually maintained on the spendy stuff.
Resistors with 1% tolerances or even half of that usually cost more as they have been selected and the rest are marked anywhere from 5% to 20% and sold for less.
NonPolar electrolytic caps can sound just fine, again the tighter tolerances of the more exotic varieties adds to the cost. Also 'Litics values tend to drift, sometimes quite a lot, over time which indicates that cheap PP's may be better in the long run.
Inductors are pretty obvious, copper by the pound is expensive, and the smaller gauges usually have a higher DCR for a given value. Iron Core Inductors by their nature have far lower DCR than Air Core and if the core doesn't become saturated from high power, they're just fine. One dirty little secret is that many times the designer will use the high DCR as part of the design, so it can actually save money and work exactly as planned. A real win-win solution!
Of all the components in a crossover, the only one's that seem to give themselves away (in a normal home situation) are the inductors if they're too small a gauge.
Use all the neat $tuff you can afford, the bragging rights may be worth it, but don't automatically assume that it's going to sound better.
Best Regards,
TerryO
My personal experience was that wires (as long as they do not have any significant resistance, inductance, or capacitance, when applicable) sound the same or similar. I have heard difference in interconnects and speaker cables, but they were in systems with high output impedance, etc. I would not worry too much about wires as long as they are of good quality and are not too long. I would not pay tens of dollars per metre for some audiophile speaker cables, and I would not pay more than tens of dollars for interconnects. I use DIY interconnects.
I have not found difference between MOX, metal film, cheap inductive wire wound, cheap non inductive wire wound in XOs among the limited types of resistors I have used.
I think for inductors the main concern is the suitability of the DCR, provided it is the air core type.
I did find a big difference in sound between capacitors, whether for a signal cap or power supply cap, and whether in a passive XO or in an active XO. I have learnt to get the best caps I can find without going crazy. i.e. I get Rubycon ZA/ZL for line level PSU filtering caps, ICW SA Clarity MKP for coupling caps (similar price as Solens but much superior in sound), Panasonic HA/HB for Tube PSU, Vishay MKP1837 / Wima for bypass or line level circuit. I think these are practically the best at high-end quality and prices, without stepping into the "Audiophile" territory. I have not used any exotic ones like PIO (Paper In Oil), Foil/Silver caps, etc. I look for the best technical specifications, rather than chasing up the best colouring of the sound which can be nice but pretty personal.
Regards,
Bill
I have not found difference between MOX, metal film, cheap inductive wire wound, cheap non inductive wire wound in XOs among the limited types of resistors I have used.
I think for inductors the main concern is the suitability of the DCR, provided it is the air core type.
I did find a big difference in sound between capacitors, whether for a signal cap or power supply cap, and whether in a passive XO or in an active XO. I have learnt to get the best caps I can find without going crazy. i.e. I get Rubycon ZA/ZL for line level PSU filtering caps, ICW SA Clarity MKP for coupling caps (similar price as Solens but much superior in sound), Panasonic HA/HB for Tube PSU, Vishay MKP1837 / Wima for bypass or line level circuit. I think these are practically the best at high-end quality and prices, without stepping into the "Audiophile" territory. I have not used any exotic ones like PIO (Paper In Oil), Foil/Silver caps, etc. I look for the best technical specifications, rather than chasing up the best colouring of the sound which can be nice but pretty personal.
Regards,
Bill
At the risk of being obvious, the rest of the system has to be equally good to justify the expense of the crossover components. This requires close attention to all aspects of the system. Cabinet reflections and diffraction issues can mask the advantages of "the best" xo components. As can poor interconnects, and system components. Driver choice is obviously important.
Wiring, Our project has had good luck with Cardas. Passive xo located at the amp. Cardas 9.5 Cu. pair to the woofer and woofer internal tail. Mid is Cardas 11.5, 5 wires in a quasi-ribbon -+-+-. Tweeter, is 21 gauge Cardas bare silver, teflon entubed, -+-+-. Runs are longish, 15 feet average. The crossover itself is wired with Cardas 16 ga silver, with star return (grounding). Recent silver prices have made the wire erratically available. A couple of the coils in the mid and tweet we wound from silver, and we bought one (also now discontinued) silver foil from Goerz/Alpha. We definitely preferred silver for upper mid and tweet smoothness.
Resistors. The Mills 12 W work very well for us. We have not looked at Caddocks. We might someday, as they are well respected.
Capacitors. Basically North Creek (out of production I believe) and Rel Cap. Depending on location, aluminized polyprop, Al foil polyprop,Sn foil polyprop, and Sn polystyrene. You can tailor the components for cost and common sense, since there just isn't any gain from using an exotic for the woofer Zobel.
As for actives for "the very best"... It is very difficult and expensive to make a really good analog preamp, even without an MM/MC stage, and of course they never have tone controls. Now you are trying to make three much more complex line stages, although without the switching and attenuatior problems, but with rolloffs, equalization, and perhaps delay. Certainly doable, but not easy. And the money for the other two amplifiers would have bought you some VERY nice passive xo components. Because of the benign effect on the amplifiers, if the xo is done well enough, this might be "the ultimate" way to go, but it's difficult and in another cost league.
As for DSP crossovers; it was not until Mark Levenson's 36/360S DACs that CD playback was equivalent to the best vinyl systems. Now do that three times, and add the much more difficult A to D converter up front...
And that assumes the DSP skills to achieve the crossover. Again, doable, but the cost of the test equipment alone...
Wiring, Our project has had good luck with Cardas. Passive xo located at the amp. Cardas 9.5 Cu. pair to the woofer and woofer internal tail. Mid is Cardas 11.5, 5 wires in a quasi-ribbon -+-+-. Tweeter, is 21 gauge Cardas bare silver, teflon entubed, -+-+-. Runs are longish, 15 feet average. The crossover itself is wired with Cardas 16 ga silver, with star return (grounding). Recent silver prices have made the wire erratically available. A couple of the coils in the mid and tweet we wound from silver, and we bought one (also now discontinued) silver foil from Goerz/Alpha. We definitely preferred silver for upper mid and tweet smoothness.
Resistors. The Mills 12 W work very well for us. We have not looked at Caddocks. We might someday, as they are well respected.
Capacitors. Basically North Creek (out of production I believe) and Rel Cap. Depending on location, aluminized polyprop, Al foil polyprop,Sn foil polyprop, and Sn polystyrene. You can tailor the components for cost and common sense, since there just isn't any gain from using an exotic for the woofer Zobel.
As for actives for "the very best"... It is very difficult and expensive to make a really good analog preamp, even without an MM/MC stage, and of course they never have tone controls. Now you are trying to make three much more complex line stages, although without the switching and attenuatior problems, but with rolloffs, equalization, and perhaps delay. Certainly doable, but not easy. And the money for the other two amplifiers would have bought you some VERY nice passive xo components. Because of the benign effect on the amplifiers, if the xo is done well enough, this might be "the ultimate" way to go, but it's difficult and in another cost league.
As for DSP crossovers; it was not until Mark Levenson's 36/360S DACs that CD playback was equivalent to the best vinyl systems. Now do that three times, and add the much more difficult A to D converter up front...
And that assumes the DSP skills to achieve the crossover. Again, doable, but the cost of the test equipment alone...
x-over
Tomv,
You must be very confused by now.
Passive or active?
Do expensive parts truly translate into sound quality?
I'd go for active as it does not have to cost heaps and offers improvement almost everybody will hear. It is not easy to design a good passive crossover other than the first order at home.
Moreover, no passive crossover system can beat active system. Active system can be used with any preamp with or without tone controls and pretty ordinary PAs. With given speaker system it will beat the most sophisticated passive crossovers with the same preamp and PAs. That is why recording studios use active systems for auditionning their recordings.
Two way fourth order Bessel (eg as the one published in Electronics Australia in 1992) costs $25 (Altronics) and is good enough. One needs two kits for stereo. Of course the Altronics sold kit comes with the cheapest parts.
If you buy boards only or make them by yourself and populate by WIMA polypropylenes and opamps such as opa132P or lme49710 (buffer) and opa2132Ps your costs should not exceed US$100. Three way system with the middle channel being the difference between all pass and low and high sections doubles the costs. Anyway, there are many crossover kits sold all over the world. Most of them are pretty cheap.
When it comes to PAs one can design them and build them or use existing designs and build or buy second hand. With active system most of your money goes into PAs so DIY or second hand option cuts costs down.
Before making any decisons it is best to listen to a few active systems versus passive ones on the same music material and if possible the same drivers. Its best to chose the most demanding music material for tests to easily pick up differences.
cheers,
Tomv,
You must be very confused by now.
Passive or active?
Do expensive parts truly translate into sound quality?
I'd go for active as it does not have to cost heaps and offers improvement almost everybody will hear. It is not easy to design a good passive crossover other than the first order at home.
Moreover, no passive crossover system can beat active system. Active system can be used with any preamp with or without tone controls and pretty ordinary PAs. With given speaker system it will beat the most sophisticated passive crossovers with the same preamp and PAs. That is why recording studios use active systems for auditionning their recordings.
Two way fourth order Bessel (eg as the one published in Electronics Australia in 1992) costs $25 (Altronics) and is good enough. One needs two kits for stereo. Of course the Altronics sold kit comes with the cheapest parts.
If you buy boards only or make them by yourself and populate by WIMA polypropylenes and opamps such as opa132P or lme49710 (buffer) and opa2132Ps your costs should not exceed US$100. Three way system with the middle channel being the difference between all pass and low and high sections doubles the costs. Anyway, there are many crossover kits sold all over the world. Most of them are pretty cheap.
When it comes to PAs one can design them and build them or use existing designs and build or buy second hand. With active system most of your money goes into PAs so DIY or second hand option cuts costs down.
Before making any decisons it is best to listen to a few active systems versus passive ones on the same music material and if possible the same drivers. Its best to chose the most demanding music material for tests to easily pick up differences.
cheers,
I've said this before in different threads.
A couple years ago I decided to build a pair of "nearly" cost no object speakers. I have a pretty "high end" rig with a great turntable and Rogue Audio and Audio Research tubed equipment. I decided to buy a pair of Accuton C23-6 tweeters and Eton 7-372 woofers. About a year ago I added a second pair of the Eton's and reconfigured the design into an MTM. Those ceramic tweeters are really expensive and I wasn't going to cheap out on caps, inductors or cable. I decided to buy all Hovland caps, 12 and 14awg Alpha core inductors, and the Mills resistors mentioned by others. All cable and binding posts are by Cardas. I was lucky and the results ended up being very good. Many of my diy friends agree.
I love all the exotic stuff, but if you are only going to spend $30 on a tweeter a $40 cap isn't going to make it into a $70 tweeter. Everything should be matched appropriately. Audiophiles, me included, love to talk about how great their cables sound... I like to build my own speakers and I use the "best" cable and parts that I can. My opinion is that this is important, but the one place your $$'s can go the farthest is in better cabinet design. My advice is to buy good parts and build the best cabinet that you can. This is one area where you will be able to clearly appreciate your efforts.
Please share you ideas for your speaker project!
Nate
A couple years ago I decided to build a pair of "nearly" cost no object speakers. I have a pretty "high end" rig with a great turntable and Rogue Audio and Audio Research tubed equipment. I decided to buy a pair of Accuton C23-6 tweeters and Eton 7-372 woofers. About a year ago I added a second pair of the Eton's and reconfigured the design into an MTM. Those ceramic tweeters are really expensive and I wasn't going to cheap out on caps, inductors or cable. I decided to buy all Hovland caps, 12 and 14awg Alpha core inductors, and the Mills resistors mentioned by others. All cable and binding posts are by Cardas. I was lucky and the results ended up being very good. Many of my diy friends agree.
I love all the exotic stuff, but if you are only going to spend $30 on a tweeter a $40 cap isn't going to make it into a $70 tweeter. Everything should be matched appropriately. Audiophiles, me included, love to talk about how great their cables sound... I like to build my own speakers and I use the "best" cable and parts that I can. My opinion is that this is important, but the one place your $$'s can go the farthest is in better cabinet design. My advice is to buy good parts and build the best cabinet that you can. This is one area where you will be able to clearly appreciate your efforts.
Please share you ideas for your speaker project!
Nate
Nate, you are very right about the drivers and boxes and economics. But some additions or changes are more audible, while other are less audible and some changes are not audible at all.
Having already got a very good passive system get a good two way fourth order Bessel crossover with HP and all pass minus HP with good quiet PS or borrow it from wherever and borrow another pair of your PAs and try your drivers again. Drive them hard. Ask your friends. Very unlikely you would like your passives back.
Having said all that I doubt very much that anyone, with the exception of possibly the most talented musical minds and ears, would be able to tell apart your speaker system from another identical one having Solen 630V caps instead of Hovland in truly blind tests, in which one writes down ones responses without observing other participants. I agree on resistors, as these should act as straight resistive wire, and cores if there is no way to avoid them - more points for good active systems.
cheers,
Having already got a very good passive system get a good two way fourth order Bessel crossover with HP and all pass minus HP with good quiet PS or borrow it from wherever and borrow another pair of your PAs and try your drivers again. Drive them hard. Ask your friends. Very unlikely you would like your passives back.
Having said all that I doubt very much that anyone, with the exception of possibly the most talented musical minds and ears, would be able to tell apart your speaker system from another identical one having Solen 630V caps instead of Hovland in truly blind tests, in which one writes down ones responses without observing other participants. I agree on resistors, as these should act as straight resistive wire, and cores if there is no way to avoid them - more points for good active systems.
cheers,
Well, that is why they are my speakers.... I built them according to my value system.
Your suggesting of an active system would probably prove interesting, but my personal preference is for passive systems. My speakers are a second order x-over that does an excellent job of blending these two very well behaved and wide range drivers.
For a couple of my other designs, I used solens bypassed with some high end film and foil caps that I had in my x-over box... The results were good. I haven't done much swapping around of components in my main speakers and frankly it doesn't really interest me. Like I said in the other post. Better cabinets will help most speakers much more than caps and coils. Of course this all assumes that the actual design of the x-over is good!!!
As with everything else, there is no free lunch. If you get some great result with some certain style or design, there will definetly be someone who preffers another design choice. All we can do as mortals is pick the path that we think will give us the most enjoyment. As it stands, my system is too complex!! More amps and electronic crossover are definetly not for me.
If you are ever in or around Seattle, WA USA drop me an email and you can check out my s*&%%y passive system.
My room treatments should be done by the first of the year so the system should be sounding really great by then.
I'd love for you to share some of your designs and use of active systems. What caps do you use in your active crossover designs??
here is my system link. I need to update the pics...
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?vevol&1160438278&read&3&4&
have a good night
Nate
Your suggesting of an active system would probably prove interesting, but my personal preference is for passive systems. My speakers are a second order x-over that does an excellent job of blending these two very well behaved and wide range drivers.
For a couple of my other designs, I used solens bypassed with some high end film and foil caps that I had in my x-over box... The results were good. I haven't done much swapping around of components in my main speakers and frankly it doesn't really interest me. Like I said in the other post. Better cabinets will help most speakers much more than caps and coils. Of course this all assumes that the actual design of the x-over is good!!!
As with everything else, there is no free lunch. If you get some great result with some certain style or design, there will definetly be someone who preffers another design choice. All we can do as mortals is pick the path that we think will give us the most enjoyment. As it stands, my system is too complex!! More amps and electronic crossover are definetly not for me.
If you are ever in or around Seattle, WA USA drop me an email and you can check out my s*&%%y passive system.
My room treatments should be done by the first of the year so the system should be sounding really great by then.I'd love for you to share some of your designs and use of active systems. What caps do you use in your active crossover designs??
here is my system link. I need to update the pics...
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?vevol&1160438278&read&3&4&
have a good night
Nate
Interesting,
About the time this was being posted yesterday I was working on part of a crossover, just a simple high pass filter - 1 cap.
Just reached over for the first thing that came to hand, a Radio Shack non-polarized 17uF electrolytic. It did about what I wanted it to. But then I dug up a 17uF PIO motor run cap and swapped it out. --- !!! --- What a difference! The PIO was so much cleaner, clearer than the dull and muddy electrolytic. I kept swapping back and forth and the difference was certainly pronounced.
Measured both to see if that might be the difference. 17.3uF for the PIO, 18uF for the electrolytic. That "may" have been the cause of the difference, but usually I can't hear that small a difference. In this case there was no mistake. Big difference in the sound.
To the Rat Shack cap's credit, it's a lot smaller and a bit cheaper than the PIO motor cap.
The motor run cap is almost the size of a Spam can, but cost only about $5, IIRC.
About the time this was being posted yesterday I was working on part of a crossover, just a simple high pass filter - 1 cap.
Just reached over for the first thing that came to hand, a Radio Shack non-polarized 17uF electrolytic. It did about what I wanted it to. But then I dug up a 17uF PIO motor run cap and swapped it out. --- !!! --- What a difference! The PIO was so much cleaner, clearer than the dull and muddy electrolytic. I kept swapping back and forth and the difference was certainly pronounced.
Measured both to see if that might be the difference. 17.3uF for the PIO, 18uF for the electrolytic. That "may" have been the cause of the difference, but usually I can't hear that small a difference. In this case there was no mistake. Big difference in the sound.
To the Rat Shack cap's credit, it's a lot smaller and a bit cheaper than the PIO motor cap.
The motor run cap is almost the size of a Spam can, but cost only about $5, IIRC.
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