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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

Long post! Speaker retrofit project... Advice, help, suggestions welcome
Long post! Speaker retrofit project... Advice, help, suggestions welcome
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Old 29th October 2007, 01:57 AM   #1
fazman is offline fazman  Canada
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Default Long post! Speaker retrofit project... Advice, help, suggestions welcome

Hey guys, here's the planned project for what will hopefully turn into an extremely high resolution speaker for me.
Advice and opinions are welcome as I want to go into this knowing pretty much what my outcome will be before I make the purchases. (The drivers in question are very expensive! as I'm sure the crossovers will be too) Hopefully, you guys who are very knowledgeable about crossover and driver technology can help me out here And yes, when I'm more confident about the driver choice after some discussion, I'm willing to pay someone to help me out with all the details too. Feel free to PM me and let me know how you can help me out and what your fees would be.

Cabinets - Energy 22 Reference Connoisseur in Rosewood
I believe the cabs are approx. 1.3 - 1.4 cubic inches for volume (my best guess) with a slot loaded port about 12" long, 9" wide and 1" high. This can't be changed other than maybe adding some more wood to take away volume if I need to do it.
A new 1.5" front baffle will be made and added to the front of the cabinet in exactly the same dimensions so it looks stock.
If you haven't seen these cabs before, they are extremely well built with a crap load of bracing and a sloped front baffle for added time alignment. Add this to the extra 1.5" front baffle and it will be extremely inert.

Driver Selection:

Woofer - Morel HU9.19 9" cast frame woofer from Parts Express
Sorry I don't know how to link the page to this post
But here are the parameters, VC dia: 3" Le: .87mH Impedance 8 ohms Re: 6.8 ohms Fs: 44 Hz SPL: 88db Vas: .69 Cu ft Qms 1.81 Qes: .40 Qts: .32 Xmax 4.25mm

Tweeter - MDT-33 Soft dome tweeter
Parameters, Impedance: 8 ohms Re: 5.2 ohms Fs: 700 Hz SPL 92.5 db

Crossover - Not sure here. I understand the drivers have very smooth rolloffs, so I'm guessing a lower order type of crossover, maybe something that will bode well for the sloped front baffle? Again here is where I'm hoping to get some help from some of the experts. I don't have the computer modeling programs and I really can't see myself starting to use them any time soon. But I do enjoy doing the speakers myself!

My goal here is to have a very high resolution speaker that will be accurate, detailed, yet very musical and non fatiguing.

I attached a picture of the cabinet that I want to use in this project. The reason I wanted to go this route is that I don't have the talent, time or patients to create the cabinets myself, so I was able to get these for a good price and hopefully I can come up with a winning design. On the back of the speaker, the base or stand is integrated into the rest of the speaker and it also houses the slot port.

If you think that my choice of drivers are wrong for my puproses of retrofitting these cabinets please feel free to suggest some alternatives. Remember that I will be adding another baffle to the front so the drivers don't have to match as far as size goes.
I simply wanted to look at Morel as I have heard some designs using them and they sounded great. Their reputation is top notch as well.
I was also thinking that some of the other drivers that I was considering usually want a larger cabinet so they may not work as well. For instance the Usher drivers and the Dayton Ref. drivers looked good but I think my cabinets are too small.

Also, if you need more info before making suggestions, ask away...

Thanks to all in advance for any advice or help that you can give me.
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Old 29th October 2007, 04:35 AM   #2
Nanook is offline Nanook  Canada
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Default do you own the Connies?

if you do, what's wrong with them. Drivers may still be available from Energy.

These are very revealing, and with the right amplification cvan make absolutely beautiful music.
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Old 29th October 2007, 05:19 AM   #3
fazman is offline fazman  Canada
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Default Re: do you own the Connies?

Quote:
Originally posted by Nanook
if you do, what's wrong with them. Drivers may still be available from Energy.

These are very revealing, and with the right amplification cvan make absolutely beautiful music.
Hey Nanook, yes I do own the Ref Conns. When I bought them the tweeters were no good. Although I've heard them before with good tweeters. I found the sound nice, but not exactly what I was looking for. Bass can be a little loose. That driver they use is not exactly what I would call a high resolution driver. Very simple steel stamped frame, small magnet and lots of xmax. It can definitely kick out some bass but just not the kind that I'm looking for. Which is my reason for doing a whole 'nother design.
I really want to be able to come up with something that sounds very real and very musical. I think some of the top drivers and even the mid line drivers can offer this if used appropriately.
I hope that I will be able to work something out .
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Old 29th October 2007, 06:01 AM   #4
Cloth Ears is offline Cloth Ears  Australia
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fazman,

If you've got Energy 22 Reference Connoisseurs, and not a lesser version of the 22's, then you have a speaker that probably can't be bettered for a few $K. The speakers that you may have heard (as Ref Con 22's) may not have been the model that you now have. Remember that these were chosen by both CBS and NBC as their studio monitor speakers. Thay might not have the bass extention you require, but they'll be pretty good other than that. you will need some amplification to drive them however.

Try here on audioasylum for a few comments.

Consider that, by doing the mods that you are planning, you will trash a really good speaker. Simply grabbing a pair of the replacement tweeters would give you a $1000 (at least) headstart on a real project budget using the drivers you are planning to use.

Please don't trash some audio classics because you are too lazy to do some simple cutting and gluing. Please?
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Old 29th October 2007, 06:03 AM   #5
vinylkid58 is offline vinylkid58  Canada
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I hate to sound like a party pooper but here goes:

You need to know as much information about the drivers and crossovers in those speakers as possible, otherwise you won't be successful. You need to find a woofer that is a close match for the cabinet design, otherwise who knows what it will sound like. You will need to build a new crossover to match the woofer and tweeter. And even if you are successful, you have just spent hundreds of dollars on new drivers and crossovers that you are going to put in a particle-board box designed in 1982?

Sorry if I sound a little harsh, but if you want great sound why not start from scratch with a proven design that is known to sound good and has all the bugs worked out for you.

Jeff
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Old 29th October 2007, 06:08 AM   #6
Cloth Ears is offline Cloth Ears  Australia
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Quote:
Originally posted by vinylkid58
Sorry if I sound a little harsh, but if you want great sound why not start from scratch with a proven design that is known to sound good and has all the bugs worked out for you.
Jeff,

It looks like we're giving similar advice from the opposite viewpoint. The cabinet that he's planning is really solid, very well designed. I think they used to go for around $5000 over here in the early '90's - so they weren't cheap.

Personally, I think fazman would find buying replacement tweeters, and then building something to fortify the bass, would give him an excellent system.

"Diff'rent strokes" and all that...

Edit:
fazman, check out this thread on restoring these speakers. Maybe it will change your mind...
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Old 29th October 2007, 06:51 AM   #7
vinylkid58 is offline vinylkid58  Canada
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cloth Ears

Personally, I think fazman would find buying replacement tweeters, and then building something to fortify the bass, would give him an excellent system.

I just found an ebay listing here in Canada for a guy who will repair the tweeters to their former glory for $160 USD EACH! So that's $320 US just to fix the tweeters, and you still have the stock crossover to deal with.

Jeff
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Old 29th October 2007, 08:08 AM   #8
Nanook is offline Nanook  Canada
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Default Ref Connies are yours?

fazman,

well if the tweeters are shot, a rebuild could be in order or a replacement from Vifa/Morel, etc could be had...remeber the NRC and API spent something in the neighbourhood of $1M to develop..it would be worth getting them fixed. As far as cleaning up the bass have a read through the thread that Cloth Ears provided. replace the caps with good ones, tight tolerences, and air core inductors instead of iron core.

The Reference Connies were/are still a great speaker, and with a little bit of work can still see off a good many speakers (and certainly any in the $500=1000 range which is what you may end uip having into them depending on your buy in).
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Old 29th October 2007, 11:06 AM   #9
sreten is offline sreten  United Kingdom
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Hi,

FWIW the bass drivers could be modded with some damping on the
frame and possibly P10's duct seal modification (photos in the other
thread are not good enough to tell.) The tweeter could be replaced
by a Seas or the new Peerless with will handle 18dB/oct @ 1.5kHz.

Zaph is no fan of Morel drivers see tests at : http://www.zaphaudio.com/

The bass drivers are probably worth quite a bit as replacements,
so if you really want to change them out probably a valid option.
What is not so valid is finding another 8" that suits ~ 35L vented ....

/sreten.
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Old 29th October 2007, 04:31 PM   #10
fazman is offline fazman  Canada
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cloth Ears
fazman,



Please don't trash some audio classics because you are too lazy to do some simple cutting and gluing. Please?
Hey Cloth Ears, beleive me I am not lazy... My wife thinks I am though. I don't think that this undertaking is an option for a lazy person
In fact if I were to restore instead of replace.... Then the cutting and gluing would not be necessary.
I happen to think that no matter what Energy's design philosophy happened to be at the time, advancements in todays driver technology is superior and therefore will allow you to make a higher resolution speaker. Cost was certainly on the minds of the people at Energy when they built this speaker I'm sure. Even though they used quality parts and the cabs are very well built there would have had to have been a financial cutoff somewhere...?
Having said all that, I'm not completely opposed to restoring if in fact I would be able to acheive my objectives.
The hyperdome tweeter did sound good when I listened to it on its own, but compared to the Vifa XT-25 I own, I thought the Vifa sounded much better and more robust especially near the lower octaves.

Now here's another option I guess I could look at.... If I were to leave the woofer, use the same lowpass but use my Vifa and adjust the highpass to compensate... would this be an option?
As I understand it, this speaker crossed over at 1500 hz correct?
I'm wondering if the Vifa is comfortable that low...
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