No luck yet!
Juhazi.... Thanks for posting some European raw driver sources. Unfortunately not much available in a high Q 12" or 15". The Peerless 12" is available and that's about it. And at over 100 euro's each plus shipping and tax it's not cheap.
I will continue to look around and hopefully find something in a reasonably priced high Q 15".
John
Juhazi.... Thanks for posting some European raw driver sources. Unfortunately not much available in a high Q 12" or 15". The Peerless 12" is available and that's about it. And at over 100 euro's each plus shipping and tax it's not cheap.
I will continue to look around and hopefully find something in a reasonably priced high Q 15".
John
Fane SOVEREIGN 15-250
Hi all!
How about this unit - Fane SOVEREIGN 15-250 (Fane International, a comprehensive range of matchless chassis loudspeakers)? In our local music store ~110 USD each.
Best regards, Albert.
Hi all!
How about this unit - Fane SOVEREIGN 15-250 (Fane International, a comprehensive range of matchless chassis loudspeakers)? In our local music store ~110 USD each.
Best regards, Albert.
Compare to Carver ALS, Triad OB 6.5en?
I have just finished reading the entire thread.
Thanks John Bush. You are very generous to share you expertise. Thanks to Pano for organizing the material and to all who have contributed.
I am new to the DYI movement.
Has anyone compared either the Manzinita or the Manzinita Ultra to either the Carver Amazing Loudspeakers or the Triad OB 6.5en?
I ask because these are the speakers I am currently using. I am interested in trying my hand at speaker building.
Also, has anyone tried using either the Manzinita or the Manzinita Ultra as speakers for an acoustic guitar amp? I realize that it would be difficult to carry around, but it might work for a regular gig.
Peace,
Rip
I have just finished reading the entire thread.
Thanks John Bush. You are very generous to share you expertise. Thanks to Pano for organizing the material and to all who have contributed.
I am new to the DYI movement.
Has anyone compared either the Manzinita or the Manzinita Ultra to either the Carver Amazing Loudspeakers or the Triad OB 6.5en?
I ask because these are the speakers I am currently using. I am interested in trying my hand at speaker building.
Also, has anyone tried using either the Manzinita or the Manzinita Ultra as speakers for an acoustic guitar amp? I realize that it would be difficult to carry around, but it might work for a regular gig.
Peace,
Rip
Manzanita Build
BeauB...
Thanks for your post! I think you will enjoy the project as so many have over the past few years. The only update of substance is there is some consensus that L2 could be a bit larger, say 2.5 MH. Other than that, pretty much status quo.
Good luck with your construct and please let us know how it goes and your impressions relative to performance.
John
BeauB...
Thanks for your post! I think you will enjoy the project as so many have over the past few years. The only update of substance is there is some consensus that L2 could be a bit larger, say 2.5 MH. Other than that, pretty much status quo.
Good luck with your construct and please let us know how it goes and your impressions relative to performance.
John
John,
Thank you so much for responding and letting me know about the recommended change.
I hope you do not mind a new guy question.
Using the Erse Super Q 20 mH 16 AWG inductor as the low pass filter, how does one determine the frequencies that will be handled by the Peerless?
Sorry, most probably know this stuff in their sleep; but I am a far way from that.
Regards,
Beau
Sorry - one more question (famous last words) - it appears both drivers are surfaced mounted. Is there a reduction is sound quality if the drivers are recessed to sit flush? I assume surface mounting was done for a reason, and maybe that was just ease of building, but maybe it was for sound affecting purposes.
Manzanita Questions....
-6 db point for the Peerless using a 20 mh inductor is about 750 HZ. This is a combination of the natural roll off of the woofer coupled with the 1st order induced by... the inductor. So you end up with a 2nd order acoustic roll off. This is why the Vifa uses a reverse phase crossover topology.
As for surface mounting, the Peerless is designed to be mounted that way. It has a shallow and smooth flange integrated into it's frame. Nice for those who do not have a router. Just do a round cut out of the correct dimension and your done.
As for the Vifa.... the only weakness of the driver (given it's cost and performance) is the frame (flange) is notched on the corners making it difficult to flush mount. But the flange is fairly thin so the added diffraction effects are not all that great. The wide flat baffle and offset positioning help to minimize un-wanted diffraction effects. However, the Vifa can benefit from a flush mounting. I have done that experimentally and it does measure a bit better when flush mounted.
You can experiment with thin open cell foam sheet surrounding the flange when surfaced mounted to improve the diffraction situation. A circle of foam the same thickness as the Vifa flange about 7"-8" in diameter does slightly improve the performance. YMMV!!
Hope this helps!
-6 db point for the Peerless using a 20 mh inductor is about 750 HZ. This is a combination of the natural roll off of the woofer coupled with the 1st order induced by... the inductor. So you end up with a 2nd order acoustic roll off. This is why the Vifa uses a reverse phase crossover topology.
As for surface mounting, the Peerless is designed to be mounted that way. It has a shallow and smooth flange integrated into it's frame. Nice for those who do not have a router. Just do a round cut out of the correct dimension and your done.
As for the Vifa.... the only weakness of the driver (given it's cost and performance) is the frame (flange) is notched on the corners making it difficult to flush mount. But the flange is fairly thin so the added diffraction effects are not all that great. The wide flat baffle and offset positioning help to minimize un-wanted diffraction effects. However, the Vifa can benefit from a flush mounting. I have done that experimentally and it does measure a bit better when flush mounted.
You can experiment with thin open cell foam sheet surrounding the flange when surfaced mounted to improve the diffraction situation. A circle of foam the same thickness as the Vifa flange about 7"-8" in diameter does slightly improve the performance. YMMV!!
Hope this helps!
JBL 2222 used as an OB woofer
perempe20 You can build just about any OB with just about any driver set, but... will it be practical? The JBL 2222 is a great pro-audio woofer and it should be at about $500 usd each! But it has a low QTS and fairly high FS (40 Hz). You could drive it with a plate amp with some added equalization. But that means you no longer have a passive system.
Making the JBL, Fountek and Seas work together on an open baffle... seamless with extended bass response will take a LOT of crossover work. Unless you already have the JBL it is difficult to justify the expense of it when you intend to use it in an OB set up. You can use either a large inductor and or medium inductor with parallel resistance and trade away the high efficiency of the JBL to get a flat and usable bass response down to around 40 Hz. Actual efficiency is dominated by the effective baffle width. You would end up around 87-88 dbw at 1 meter assuming a 20" or so baffle width. I think you would be better served with a higher Q woofer.
perempe20 You can build just about any OB with just about any driver set, but... will it be practical? The JBL 2222 is a great pro-audio woofer and it should be at about $500 usd each! But it has a low QTS and fairly high FS (40 Hz). You could drive it with a plate amp with some added equalization. But that means you no longer have a passive system.
Making the JBL, Fountek and Seas work together on an open baffle... seamless with extended bass response will take a LOT of crossover work. Unless you already have the JBL it is difficult to justify the expense of it when you intend to use it in an OB set up. You can use either a large inductor and or medium inductor with parallel resistance and trade away the high efficiency of the JBL to get a flat and usable bass response down to around 40 Hz. Actual efficiency is dominated by the effective baffle width. You would end up around 87-88 dbw at 1 meter assuming a 20" or so baffle width. I think you would be better served with a higher Q woofer.
Hi All,
I'm ready to order parts on to make the Manzanita Ultra and just wanted to make sure I have the correct P/E # listed below:
L1 Woofer 1st order low pass electrical inductor. 18-22 MH Iron core. 15-16 ga. Default part at the moment is (16 ga. 20 MH)PE P/N 266-960
L2 H.F. trap inductor 2.75 MH air core Perfect Lay Solen. 14 Ga. (Madisound) Range can vary from 2.4 - 2.90 MH Also available from PE. PE P/N 266-836
C1 H.F. 1st order electrical high pass capacitor. 6.0 MFD. Possible PE. 5.5 - 6.5 MFD to suit. Higher cost caps of equal MFD value are available from numerous sources. Look for 200 Volt or higher Poly, film and foil, MKP or Oil construction.PE P/N 027-236
R1 HF trap bypass resistor... 15.0 ohm, 5-10 watt low noise MILS. Range can vary from 12-25 ohms.PE P/N 015-15
R2 H.F Pad...8.0 ohm, 5-10 watt low noise MILS. Range can vary from 7-9 ohms. PE P/N# 016-8.2
Woofer. GRS-15PF-8 15" woofer. PE P/N 292-415.
Mid-tweeter. Vifa TC9FD18-08. PE 264-1062.
The only thing I am missing is the size of the baffle given the larger subwoofer. Can anyone help me out with that?
Please let me know if I'm missing anything and if they have recommendations for a better capacitor that isn't too expensive.
Thanks
I'm ready to order parts on to make the Manzanita Ultra and just wanted to make sure I have the correct P/E # listed below:
L1 Woofer 1st order low pass electrical inductor. 18-22 MH Iron core. 15-16 ga. Default part at the moment is (16 ga. 20 MH)PE P/N 266-960
L2 H.F. trap inductor 2.75 MH air core Perfect Lay Solen. 14 Ga. (Madisound) Range can vary from 2.4 - 2.90 MH Also available from PE. PE P/N 266-836
C1 H.F. 1st order electrical high pass capacitor. 6.0 MFD. Possible PE. 5.5 - 6.5 MFD to suit. Higher cost caps of equal MFD value are available from numerous sources. Look for 200 Volt or higher Poly, film and foil, MKP or Oil construction.PE P/N 027-236
R1 HF trap bypass resistor... 15.0 ohm, 5-10 watt low noise MILS. Range can vary from 12-25 ohms.PE P/N 015-15
R2 H.F Pad...8.0 ohm, 5-10 watt low noise MILS. Range can vary from 7-9 ohms. PE P/N# 016-8.2
Woofer. GRS-15PF-8 15" woofer. PE P/N 292-415.
Mid-tweeter. Vifa TC9FD18-08. PE 264-1062.
The only thing I am missing is the size of the baffle given the larger subwoofer. Can anyone help me out with that?
Please let me know if I'm missing anything and if they have recommendations for a better capacitor that isn't too expensive.
Thanks
Ultra info
Your list of components is complete and should work well. The only additional items you may consider would be a couple of 0.33 caps (PE 027-404) to play with on the high pass. For your main high pass cap a 5.6 uf (PE 027-425) will work pretty well.
I would also get a couple 7 ohm (PE-005-7) and 9 ohm (PE-004-91) resistors to allow some experimentation with the HF pad . The baffle plate is 24" X 48" nominal dimensions with 4" depth wings. You should use at least 0.7" thick material for the baffle plate.
There is the option of adding a woofer trap in series with the woofer (coil - cap 15 uf & 0.40 mh in parallel with each other). I have never posted this as it is part of the commercial crossover and it does add to the build cost. This trap does clean the upper end of the woofer band pass.
Hope the above is helpful.
John
Your list of components is complete and should work well. The only additional items you may consider would be a couple of 0.33 caps (PE 027-404) to play with on the high pass. For your main high pass cap a 5.6 uf (PE 027-425) will work pretty well.
I would also get a couple 7 ohm (PE-005-7) and 9 ohm (PE-004-91) resistors to allow some experimentation with the HF pad . The baffle plate is 24" X 48" nominal dimensions with 4" depth wings. You should use at least 0.7" thick material for the baffle plate.
There is the option of adding a woofer trap in series with the woofer (coil - cap 15 uf & 0.40 mh in parallel with each other). I have never posted this as it is part of the commercial crossover and it does add to the build cost. This trap does clean the upper end of the woofer band pass.
Hope the above is helpful.
John
I have my single driver OB ~18 inches from the side wall and 30 inches from the back wall, angled in just a few degrees off centre and tilted up to listening height. The walls are lined with bamboo screens.
Soundstaging is excellent, bass extends well to 75hz and fair to 55hz and then a huge roll off. Fs of ~100-120hz causes the panel to vibrate a great deal and 90-95hz cause the box build S3 to resonate audibly on their stands.
This build is less than $10 USD for the pair.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
[/QUOTE]Hi John
I have a couple of questions. First, is the woofer trap you mention above for the GRS15PF (Ultra) woofer or for the Peerless 12" (Manzanita). I assume the former, but wanted to make sure.
Second, what commercial product do you use this trap in? I was under the impression that the Ultra CV used a different ??? 15" high Q woofer, but not the GRS15PF (or does the Ultra CV use the GRS15PF as well?).
Lastly - what speaker did I listen to in your room at this years (2014) LSAF? I think they must have been the Manzanita CVs as they were stand mounted. They sounded fantastic BTW! Do they have the same 15" woofer as the Ultra CV and the same woofer trap?
Thanks,
gab
Traps oh my!
The trap was developed for the 15" but does also work to a lesser degree with the Peerless. I use this trap (and other similar ones) in all the models that utilize the current GRS 15". (Manzanita CV, Ultra CV and Ultra Plus)
We were demonstrating the Manzanita CV at LSAF this year. Thank you for sharing your positive impression! We received a lot of positive comments. Sure hope there is a LSAF to go to next year!!
John
The trap was developed for the 15" but does also work to a lesser degree with the Peerless. I use this trap (and other similar ones) in all the models that utilize the current GRS 15". (Manzanita CV, Ultra CV and Ultra Plus)
We were demonstrating the Manzanita CV at LSAF this year. Thank you for sharing your positive impression! We received a lot of positive comments. Sure hope there is a LSAF to go to next year!!
John
John - like this (see attached)? If so could you explain how this network works with the effective parallel notch filter network value of R being gigantic (i.e., it is an open circuit)?
From the mh-audio.nl - Home site, I input your C and L values (see attachment) with various resistor values up to 999,999 ohms. After playing with this calculator, I am confused with your lack of a resistor in your circuit.
The impedance calculator on this site shows the results of a 15uF, 0.4 mH, and two cases for "R" (999999 or as big as it would accept in calculator and 3.56 ohms). These are shown in the 2 attachments.
I guess I just don't understand and could use some education. Any insight into what is happening is very much appreciated.
gab
Attachments
Parallel Notch Circuit
The main thing I was after is to set a resonate circuit at around 2K which is where both the 12 & 15 inch drivers break up. And that is what the two components do and with maximum attenuation assuming no parallel resistor. I do add in the crossover series resistances in the formula showing the speaker impedance to be about
8.8 ohms. And we save a $5.00 resistor doing it this way. And the broadness of the circuit also helps a little bit to tame the rising response of the woofer. The simple large 1st order inductor starts to lose it's effect around 1 KHz as the speakers natural impedance starts rising. Hope this info helps.
John
The main thing I was after is to set a resonate circuit at around 2K which is where both the 12 & 15 inch drivers break up. And that is what the two components do and with maximum attenuation assuming no parallel resistor. I do add in the crossover series resistances in the formula showing the speaker impedance to be about
8.8 ohms. And we save a $5.00 resistor doing it this way. And the broadness of the circuit also helps a little bit to tame the rising response of the woofer. The simple large 1st order inductor starts to lose it's effect around 1 KHz as the speakers natural impedance starts rising. Hope this info helps.
John