I'm not nearly done reading this thread, but am interested in building the Manzanita and have a question about it (and OBs in general): if overexcursion of the woofer's cone is a potential problem, especially with certain forms of rock and pop music, could a surround receiver's bass management system be of help with this issue?
If the receiver's bass management system offers the proper xover point (most offer a xover frequency at least down to 60Hz though many seem to go as low as 40Hz), could an OB like the Manzanita be used with a surround receiver, with its management system's xover set to an appropriate point, so as to help eliminate the unwanted frequencies that have the potential to cause overexcursion? Btw I'm not talking about using a subwoofer with the Manzanitas - I just want to use the filtering abilities of the receiver's electronic xover system.
This plan also offers the advantage of reducing the strain on the receiver's power amp section since it would not have to handle power-hungry very low bass notes, bass that an OB might not be able to reproduce anyway without audible distortion or damaging overexcursion.
If the receiver's bass management system offers the proper xover point (most offer a xover frequency at least down to 60Hz though many seem to go as low as 40Hz), could an OB like the Manzanita be used with a surround receiver, with its management system's xover set to an appropriate point, so as to help eliminate the unwanted frequencies that have the potential to cause overexcursion? Btw I'm not talking about using a subwoofer with the Manzanitas - I just want to use the filtering abilities of the receiver's electronic xover system.
This plan also offers the advantage of reducing the strain on the receiver's power amp section since it would not have to handle power-hungry very low bass notes, bass that an OB might not be able to reproduce anyway without audible distortion or damaging overexcursion.
The manzanita's effective low end extension is around 38-42 Hz. Below that, the output rolls of very quickly. So a filter set around 30 Hz or so would be ok. One good thing about the Peerless is that it has a very progressive spider and can take a lot of punishment. It can be driven hard enough to drive the voice coil out of the gap, but it really takes a lot to do it.
So, yes, you can use the Manzanita as a surround speaker with bass management.
So, yes, you can use the Manzanita as a surround speaker with bass management.
Curious if there's been any more work with the SB tweeter.
Perhaps the FR approach has been dropped, but was the Dayton RS100 considered among the 3-4"s?
Dayton Audio RS100-4 4" Reference Full-Range Driver 4 Ohm
Perhaps the FR approach has been dropped, but was the Dayton RS100 considered among the 3-4"s?
Dayton Audio RS100-4 4" Reference Full-Range Driver 4 Ohm
Low cost alternative mid-range tweeter for the Manzanita
Hello All
As Pano indicates there has been a lot of effort to update the Manzanita with a 3" class full range to replace the very expensive Scan Speak mid-tweeter dome.
As for the Dayton aluminum 4", nice driver but it's true efficiency is more like 81.5 through most of it's range and it has a nasy break up on the very high end. It can work, but I think there are better choices.
So far I have worked with Fountek, Dayton, Vifa, Tang band and other full range drivers. A balance of crossover cost - simplicity and driver cost - performance have been my over all goal. Geting the Manzanita back to as simple and low cost trim as possible while mantaining and or improving over all performance.
I have narrowed my choices down to two drivers. The best of the two may be discontinued (seems to be a lot of that these days). Waiting for a solid answer from the supplier about long term availability.
I hope to be able to share an updated version in the next few weeks.
Also, I have designed a larger version of the Manzanita I call Manzanitas Gigantus, taking the orginal design a bit further. More on that project to come.
Hello All
As Pano indicates there has been a lot of effort to update the Manzanita with a 3" class full range to replace the very expensive Scan Speak mid-tweeter dome.
As for the Dayton aluminum 4", nice driver but it's true efficiency is more like 81.5 through most of it's range and it has a nasy break up on the very high end. It can work, but I think there are better choices.
So far I have worked with Fountek, Dayton, Vifa, Tang band and other full range drivers. A balance of crossover cost - simplicity and driver cost - performance have been my over all goal. Geting the Manzanita back to as simple and low cost trim as possible while mantaining and or improving over all performance.
I have narrowed my choices down to two drivers. The best of the two may be discontinued (seems to be a lot of that these days). Waiting for a solid answer from the supplier about long term availability.
I hope to be able to share an updated version in the next few weeks.
Also, I have designed a larger version of the Manzanita I call Manzanitas Gigantus, taking the orginal design a bit further. More on that project to come.
John,
Have you given the Mark Audio Alpair 6 a listen? Not inexpensive, but the sound
is extremely good. I'm not a fan of metal cone drivers, but this little guy is a truly
phenomenal sounding driver. Very low distortion and amazing top to bottom coherence.
It has plenty of excursion and offers a wide range of frequencies for the crossover.
Not cheap, but not too expensive. And it looks like it will be in production for a long time.
Looking forward to your new designs.
Have you given the Mark Audio Alpair 6 a listen? Not inexpensive, but the sound
is extremely good. I'm not a fan of metal cone drivers, but this little guy is a truly
phenomenal sounding driver. Very low distortion and amazing top to bottom coherence.
It has plenty of excursion and offers a wide range of frequencies for the crossover.
Not cheap, but not too expensive. And it looks like it will be in production for a long time.
Looking forward to your new designs.
Mark Audio 6 inch full range
I did notice the entire Mark Audio line over at Madisound I believe, but cost is the problem there. On paper they look like well designed drivers. Also have some concerns as to shouty performance from a driver that large having to work all the way out to 15K or so. If anyone has any direct experience with this driver it would be nice to get some impressions on it.
I did notice the entire Mark Audio line over at Madisound I believe, but cost is the problem there. On paper they look like well designed drivers. Also have some concerns as to shouty performance from a driver that large having to work all the way out to 15K or so. If anyone has any direct experience with this driver it would be nice to get some impressions on it.
I do have direct experience with it. I'm very impressed with the alp6 in particular. Not shouty at all. Fairly good off axis performance. Extends out to 20k.
What I really liked was the low distortion and the huge, almost unbelievable soundstage it was able to throw. Plus the coherence is great. It simply sounds very musical and effortless, something I would attach with a larger, high quality, high efficiency paper driver. Of course, all of this within its limits. It is a small driver and you don't expect to fill a large room with it, unless you are using it >500 Hz. I was using it full range in a small room, definitely near field. But it may work as a mid-tweeter.
I'm running it with the delite amp right now ~6 watts of power. It beats the pants off the JX92s in almost every aspect, except bass extension and SPL.
All I'm saying is give it a go and see what you think. They would be perfect for this project.
Oh and the alp6 is not six inch. It is more like 3 inches in diameter. Tiny driver.
What I really liked was the low distortion and the huge, almost unbelievable soundstage it was able to throw. Plus the coherence is great. It simply sounds very musical and effortless, something I would attach with a larger, high quality, high efficiency paper driver. Of course, all of this within its limits. It is a small driver and you don't expect to fill a large room with it, unless you are using it >500 Hz. I was using it full range in a small room, definitely near field. But it may work as a mid-tweeter.
I'm running it with the delite amp right now ~6 watts of power. It beats the pants off the JX92s in almost every aspect, except bass extension and SPL.
All I'm saying is give it a go and see what you think. They would be perfect for this project.
Oh and the alp6 is not six inch. It is more like 3 inches in diameter. Tiny driver.
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Another trip back to the 80s 
and entry-level drivers, but I think the concept is still a valid one and fits right in with what is being discussed at this moment.....
Does anyone manufacture something like this?
RS dedicated 3" cone mid/tweeter with subenclosure - page 22, left side (click to enlarge and drag)
I've seen many vintage speaker systems sold back in the 50s and 60s use something similar, for example, a 12" or 15" woofer paired with a five inch driver that handles the midrange and upper frequencies. They definitely weren't suitable for use as studio monitors or for critical listening but because of their mellow "friendly" sonic signature, made music easy to listen to for hours.
BTW the 40-1354 5.25" FR driver so many DIYers like to use is shown on page 61, in the car audio section. It's crammed in with all their other products with nothing special written about it, but little did the RS engineers know what was in store for their driver in the 21st century........
and entry-level drivers, but I think the concept is still a valid one and fits right in with what is being discussed at this moment.....Does anyone manufacture something like this?
RS dedicated 3" cone mid/tweeter with subenclosure - page 22, left side (click to enlarge and drag)
I've seen many vintage speaker systems sold back in the 50s and 60s use something similar, for example, a 12" or 15" woofer paired with a five inch driver that handles the midrange and upper frequencies. They definitely weren't suitable for use as studio monitors or for critical listening but because of their mellow "friendly" sonic signature, made music easy to listen to for hours.
BTW the 40-1354 5.25" FR driver so many DIYers like to use is shown on page 61, in the car audio section. It's crammed in with all their other products with nothing special written about it, but little did the RS engineers know what was in store for their driver in the 21st century........
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This certainly is an interesting project, I'm looking to build use the original Seas 27tdfc tweeter and then perhaps experiment with one of the smaller diameter Alpair drivers, most likely an Alpair5.
I do have a question though and I'm hoping someone can enlighten me here.
What is the point of having asymetrical rear wings? Also, so long as the baffle is adequately braced could I do away with them entirely?
I do have a question though and I'm hoping someone can enlighten me here.
What is the point of having asymetrical rear wings? Also, so long as the baffle is adequately braced could I do away with them entirely?
looking forward too see your new version john. still enjoying my tdfc version btw
also, I was looking for a speaker with a very low tweeter xo and found the linkwitz pluto. It uses the Aurasound NSW2-326-8A-120.
Plays flat down too 200-250hz(fs:250hz), distortion does not atart to rise before 700-800hz, x-max is 6mm p-p and it has pretty good HF extension.
I have not heard this driver myself, but the pluto at least is a highly regarded speaker. The only downside as i can see it is that the diaphram is titanium and not magnesium.... ohh, well....
https://www.madisound.com/store/manuals/NSW2-326-8A.pdf
also, I was looking for a speaker with a very low tweeter xo and found the linkwitz pluto. It uses the Aurasound NSW2-326-8A-120.
Plays flat down too 200-250hz(fs:250hz), distortion does not atart to rise before 700-800hz, x-max is 6mm p-p and it has pretty good HF extension.
I have not heard this driver myself, but the pluto at least is a highly regarded speaker. The only downside as i can see it is that the diaphram is titanium and not magnesium.... ohh, well....
https://www.madisound.com/store/manuals/NSW2-326-8A.pdf
Westy37
The wing shape and depth were a compromise driven by smoothing efforts and getting as much depth as possible with out inducing cavity resonances.
I derived the shapes via listening and simple measurement. They do not need to be exactly as they are for the project to perform well. Wing depth closely averaging the original will work. The depth also sets the F-3 and F equal for the system, which effects the low end cut off, woofer efficiency and woofer upper end roll off. So if the depth increases, some modifications to the crossover would be needed to rebalance the system.
Hope this the above info helps.
John
The wing shape and depth were a compromise driven by smoothing efforts and getting as much depth as possible with out inducing cavity resonances.
I derived the shapes via listening and simple measurement. They do not need to be exactly as they are for the project to perform well. Wing depth closely averaging the original will work. The depth also sets the F-3 and F equal for the system, which effects the low end cut off, woofer efficiency and woofer upper end roll off. So if the depth increases, some modifications to the crossover would be needed to rebalance the system.
Hope this the above info helps.
John