These don't change much in a big room. They seem to like a big room. You'll just need more power.
At the moment a number of us are working behind the scenes for a better tweeter integration. Please stay tuned.
I have thoughts on how these compare to the silver iris - but I don't want to be a bad boy!
.
At the moment a number of us are working behind the scenes for a better tweeter integration. Please stay tuned.
I have thoughts on how these compare to the silver iris - but I don't want to be a bad boy!
.
Interesting thread, if I was to use totally different drivers, would the same low -6db/oct filter on the woofer work as well as on the peerless woofer?
I've got a pair of Eminence 4012HO's which are known to work well with OB, but have yet to buy any tweeters, and am tempted to try this enclosure... I guess I'd have to change the XO, but I may just bi-amp and use a digital XO.
I've got a pair of Eminence 4012HO's which are known to work well with OB, but have yet to buy any tweeters, and am tempted to try this enclosure... I guess I'd have to change the XO, but I may just bi-amp and use a digital XO.
The low freq. crossover does a few things here.
First it kills the big rising response that just about any mid to low Q woofer will have on open baffle.
Second it does roll off the top off the Peerless some, allowing the tweeter to match up.
The trouble with so much open baffle stuff is that the designers are afraid the throw away sensitivity to get a good tonal balance. But without doing that, the mids coming from your woofer are much too hot. Result? No bass.
So the big inductor kills the rise and gives proper tonal balance. But you do lose a LOT of efficiency - as much as 10dB. The Manzanita is not an efficient speaker. Maybe 82dB/Watt. We're down in Maganan territory. But it sounds terrific and does not lack a solid mid bass, as so many OB do.
A very low 1st order filter seems like a cheap trick, and it is. But ti works like a charm. Get the right driver and baffle and it may be all you need.
.
First it kills the big rising response that just about any mid to low Q woofer will have on open baffle.
Second it does roll off the top off the Peerless some, allowing the tweeter to match up.
The trouble with so much open baffle stuff is that the designers are afraid the throw away sensitivity to get a good tonal balance. But without doing that, the mids coming from your woofer are much too hot. Result? No bass.
So the big inductor kills the rise and gives proper tonal balance. But you do lose a LOT of efficiency - as much as 10dB. The Manzanita is not an efficient speaker. Maybe 82dB/Watt. We're down in Maganan territory. But it sounds terrific and does not lack a solid mid bass, as so many OB do.
A very low 1st order filter seems like a cheap trick, and it is. But ti works like a charm. Get the right driver and baffle and it may be all you need.
.
Excellent stuff pano, I think I'm going to take the plunge and try and built this. I'm going to see what it's like with Eminence drivers, and use a digital XO, it's still cheap at I already have it. 
That peerless driver does seem like a nice driver tho, crazy to think a subwoofer driver can sound as good as you guys have reported above 100Hz.
I do think using a 3" cone instead of a tweeter is a nice idea also, as it allows you to have a lower XO point, and also you get waves from the back of the cone which is surely desirable in an OB setup?
I have yet to decide on a tweeter/cone, but I think Monacor make quite a nice 3" cone, which has a high amount of output and also hits 16Khz without problems. I'll see if I can find the model number...
That peerless driver does seem like a nice driver tho, crazy to think a subwoofer driver can sound as good as you guys have reported above 100Hz.I do think using a 3" cone instead of a tweeter is a nice idea also, as it allows you to have a lower XO point, and also you get waves from the back of the cone which is surely desirable in an OB setup?
I have yet to decide on a tweeter/cone, but I think Monacor make quite a nice 3" cone, which has a high amount of output and also hits 16Khz without problems. I'll see if I can find the model number...
I have owned a set of SI's (they're now my son's), and have heard both this version of the Manzanita AND the updated version played at this year's NorCal DIY get together. No question, the Manzanita's are the better sounding speaker. The SI's aren't as smooth up top, as detailed in the mids, or as extended at the bottom. I'd regard a sub (or stereo subs as I set up for my son) as mandatory with SI's, at least in my room and for my liking. Not so with the M's, at least in the spaces where I heard them (well away from the back wall, something I can't achieve in my home).
OTOH, there's no playing the Manzanita's with a tiny tube amp, while the SI's will do fine on a few paltry watts, and given more power will play louder than I'd ever want. The SI's can be (and have been) used for light PA duty. I can't speak to the SPL limits of the Manzanita's. I heard them at 'normal' listening levels and they were fine.
If you've got the power, the Manzanita's are really very good.
Bill
Mini-Manzanita
Hi All,
I worked a lot this week-end, I build a mini manzanita. This version is less tall (20" instead 27") because I want it at the good ear height on my stand. Now It looks like a big mini monitor. I add two options : 3 tweeters were tested and it is possible to choose your bass extension.
Vifa DX25 version
Seas 27TDFC version
Seas 27TBCG version
The plan
The crossovers
The crossover frequency is near 1100Hz ~LR4. You can choose 3 values for the boomer inductor and you adjust the tweeter level. I use 10mH. You can adjust tweeter level with R2, depend on your taste, you amplifier, your room etc.
The tweeters option, you choose the tweeter you want, I don't have recommendations but I have a little preference for the 27TBCG version.
Measurement from the DX25 version.
This is my modest contribution to this very nice project.
Thanks again John and Pano.
Have fun
Hi All,
I worked a lot this week-end, I build a mini manzanita. This version is less tall (20" instead 27") because I want it at the good ear height on my stand. Now It looks like a big mini monitor. I add two options : 3 tweeters were tested and it is possible to choose your bass extension.
Vifa DX25 version
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Seas 27TDFC version
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Seas 27TBCG version
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
The plan
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
The crossovers
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
The crossover frequency is near 1100Hz ~LR4. You can choose 3 values for the boomer inductor and you adjust the tweeter level. I use 10mH. You can adjust tweeter level with R2, depend on your taste, you amplifier, your room etc.
The tweeters option, you choose the tweeter you want, I don't have recommendations but I have a little preference for the 27TBCG version.
Measurement from the DX25 version.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
This is my modest contribution to this very nice project.
Thanks again John and Pano.
Have fun
Visaton do a lot of pretty cheap 2 or 3" extended range drivers. My favourite for OB is the frs8. If you were to pay a little more, the M version has 6dB more sensitivity.
Chris
Visaton - Lautsprecher und Zubehör, Loudspeakers and Accessories
They also do a 4 ohm version, if that takes your fancy
Hey Jerome! Nice work on the new, smaller, lighter, cuter version.
And thanks for the good documentation of the tweeters and crossover possibilities.
Of course, I have some questions.
1: How do yo find the smaller baffle sounds? Is there much loss of bass or mid bass?
2: Has the baffle peak shifted enough to bother you, or did it not matter?
3: I see that you are using an LCR trap on the woofer. Have you found much benefit to this? For me, the Peerless woofer is so clean that I've never felt the need for a trap. What are your thoughts?
Most guys want to make this speaker bigger. larger baffle, 2 woofers, etc. You're the 1st to take it the other way. =) Nice thinking.
I wonder is deeper wings on this shorted baffle would be of benefit?
And thanks for the good documentation of the tweeters and crossover possibilities.
Of course, I have some questions.
1: How do yo find the smaller baffle sounds? Is there much loss of bass or mid bass?
2: Has the baffle peak shifted enough to bother you, or did it not matter?
3: I see that you are using an LCR trap on the woofer. Have you found much benefit to this? For me, the Peerless woofer is so clean that I've never felt the need for a trap. What are your thoughts?
Most guys want to make this speaker bigger. larger baffle, 2 woofers, etc. You're the 1st to take it the other way. =) Nice thinking.
I wonder is deeper wings on this shorted baffle would be of benefit?
Wings, when they get too long can affect the "airy" sound that surrounds OB speakers - the rear of the speaker sends out the same as the front, but the extra mid/high behind the baffle leads to all sorts of reflections (few of which actually measure as a good thing), which sound nice to the ear. Adding larger wings would stop the radiation of those rearwaves, making is sound more and more monopole. The advantage is bass extension.
This is of my experience, messing with 3"FR speakers, and wings of various sizes.
This is of my experience, messing with 3"FR speakers, and wings of various sizes.
Tweeter choices
Some thinking about tweeters for this project.
The original used the Seas 27TDFC tweeter, which is a good choice, nice tweeter. But it is a bit strained to play down low enough and clean enough to match the woofer.
John and I knew we could do better, and we did. We used the old ScanSpeak 3806/8200 mid-tweeter. A real truck of a tweeter, it has no problem playing down low and sounds great doing so. A great match with the woofer.
Trouble is, it is no longer made - and it was expensive when new.
So my thoughts, and the thoughts of some others is to use an extended range cone driver as the tweeter. Something that would have no problem playing down low enough and would have the added benefit of rear radiation for dipole. I was thinking along the lines of a Tang Band 3 or 4", or a small Fostex. There are other choices, of course.
Was talking to John yesterday and we discussed this. He has tried a few small cone drivers for the tweeter and not been happy with them. The problem is that the Peerless woofer is so clean that most of these small cone drivers just don't match well with it. You can hear that they are struggling.
There are some issues with the dipole response in the midrange, too. I'll let John chime in on that one.
This weekend John will be trying some dome tweeters in a waveguide, a la Zaph Audio. The waveguide should allow the domes to play low enough and clean enough to match the woofer. We shall see! Or hear.
Some thinking about tweeters for this project.
The original used the Seas 27TDFC tweeter, which is a good choice, nice tweeter. But it is a bit strained to play down low enough and clean enough to match the woofer.
John and I knew we could do better, and we did. We used the old ScanSpeak 3806/8200 mid-tweeter. A real truck of a tweeter, it has no problem playing down low and sounds great doing so. A great match with the woofer.
Trouble is, it is no longer made - and it was expensive when new.
So my thoughts, and the thoughts of some others is to use an extended range cone driver as the tweeter. Something that would have no problem playing down low enough and would have the added benefit of rear radiation for dipole. I was thinking along the lines of a Tang Band 3 or 4", or a small Fostex. There are other choices, of course.
Was talking to John yesterday and we discussed this. He has tried a few small cone drivers for the tweeter and not been happy with them. The problem is that the Peerless woofer is so clean that most of these small cone drivers just don't match well with it. You can hear that they are struggling.
There are some issues with the dipole response in the midrange, too. I'll let John chime in on that one.
This weekend John will be trying some dome tweeters in a waveguide, a la Zaph Audio. The waveguide should allow the domes to play low enough and clean enough to match the woofer. We shall see! Or hear.
^ I"l be keeping an eye open for this, consider the Monacor SPX-30x (I think!) also, if you can find it for sale. It supposed to be pretty efficient and with 3mm xmax from a 3" driver I may keep up with the peerless.
Thanks, I've ordered 4 x FRS8M's, I saw them on e-bay for a fiver each so I couldn't resist. I figure is 1 driver can't keep up, then 2 should manage. I'm not really sure how they'll deal with stuff above 10Khz, so we shall see.
Hi Pano.
I will give you a response
1: How do yo find the smaller baffle sounds? Is there much loss of bass or mid bass?
The smaller baffle have less low bass, but goes low really, have good bass and mid bass, a good point of this design. You can choose the bass extension in my crossover I use the less bass extension and I find it is enough in my small room.
2: Has the baffle peak shifted enough to bother you, or did it not matter?
No problem with the baffle peak, did not matter, the response curve is in the +-3 dB range.
Note, it is not my first OB with theses loudspeakers, I went really fast to tune this loudspeaker .I Aso began to work a long time before to build something. It explains why I didn't matter about the dipole peak.
3: I see that you are using an LCR trap on the woofer. Have you found much benefit to this? For me, the Peerless woofer is so clean that I've never felt the need for a trap. What are your thoughts?
I am very sensitive with cone break up, the treble is not as clean as it should be if the cone break is not correctly suppressed. Yes I heard the cone breakup in the 3 ways and the crossover frequency is lower... Imagine in a 2 ways.
Most guys want to make this speaker bigger. larger baffle, 2 woofers, etc. You're the 1st to take it the other way. =) Nice thinking.
Yes because it's unbelievable, you can play loud with one woofer. I think one woofer is enough for a standard use. 2 woofers means a very good amplifier to handle well the 2 SLS which can deliver powerful and lower bass. I think a 3 ways is more profitable in a floor standing version for example.
I wonder is deeper wings on this shorted baffle would be of benefit?
No for 2 reasons, you make a U frame, we should avoid and the polar response is less good.
The sound, it is a terrific 2 ways for the price
I like a lot the sound of the 2 ways version, the sound is very good. I cannot describe in detail what I expect from a loudspeaker but I use the foot tapping when I listen to my favorite music.
Que la force soit avec toi
Regards.
I will give you a response
1: How do yo find the smaller baffle sounds? Is there much loss of bass or mid bass?
The smaller baffle have less low bass, but goes low really, have good bass and mid bass, a good point of this design. You can choose the bass extension in my crossover
I use the less bass extension and I find it is enough in my small room. 2: Has the baffle peak shifted enough to bother you, or did it not matter?
No problem with the baffle peak, did not matter, the response curve is in the +-3 dB range.
Note, it is not my first OB with theses loudspeakers, I went really fast to tune this loudspeaker
.I Aso began to work a long time before to build something. It explains why I didn't matter about the dipole peak.3: I see that you are using an LCR trap on the woofer. Have you found much benefit to this? For me, the Peerless woofer is so clean that I've never felt the need for a trap. What are your thoughts?
I am very sensitive with cone break up, the treble is not as clean as it should be if the cone break is not correctly suppressed. Yes I heard the cone breakup in the 3 ways and the crossover frequency is lower... Imagine in a 2 ways.
Most guys want to make this speaker bigger. larger baffle, 2 woofers, etc. You're the 1st to take it the other way. =) Nice thinking.
Yes because it's unbelievable, you can play loud with one woofer. I think one woofer is enough for a standard use. 2 woofers means a very good amplifier to handle well the 2 SLS which can deliver powerful and lower bass. I think a 3 ways is more profitable in a floor standing version for example.
I wonder is deeper wings on this shorted baffle would be of benefit?
No for 2 reasons, you make a U frame, we should avoid and the polar response is less good.
The sound, it is a terrific 2 ways for the price
I like a lot the sound of the 2 ways version, the sound is very good. I cannot describe in detail what I expect from a loudspeaker but I use the foot tapping when I listen to my favorite music.
Que la force soit avec toi
Regards.
Yes use small driver is problematic in a OB.
This first problem is distortion as you wrote, these small drivers make a lot of distortion and the SLS distortion is low. The second is the diffraction. It could be a nightmare to place a small driver on a panel. The third problem is they start beaming low (5kHz).
But in small driver, I have 2 low cost candidates with low distortion:
-Aurasound NW2, good after 1kHz.
-Fountek FR88EX, seems to be a high end speaker.
I'm sorry to hear that. I believe the Neo8 would work really good. I use the Neo3PDR (4th order active 1440hz) in my dipoles and absolutely love them and I think they're at least as good as the best domes I've heard (Millennium, SS9900, SS6600 among others). The bad thing is you would need new baffles to try them out.
Hi Jerome - thanks for the answers. They tell me a lot.
Nice to know that the baffle can be reduced some without hurting the sound too much. So loss in the low end is to be expected.
I have not tried the floor standing version, but it should not play much lower if the baffle is the same width. It will play louder, tho. I agree that a 3 way might be best for a double woofer, floor standing version.
John did try a little driver like the Fountek, but found it was not quite good enough. I have those little drivers here somewhere. The Aurasound looks interesting.
It's a fun project, for sure!
Nice to know that the baffle can be reduced some without hurting the sound too much. So loss in the low end is to be expected.
I have not tried the floor standing version, but it should not play much lower if the baffle is the same width. It will play louder, tho.
I agree that a 3 way might be best for a double woofer, floor standing version.John did try a little driver like the Fountek, but found it was not quite good enough. I have those little drivers here somewhere. The Aurasound looks interesting.
It's a fun project, for sure!