Thanks for sharing...
spgjmf.. Another interesting variation woofer wise... Good to know you like the sound quality... The design, as you have experienced, is quite flexible... 12" -15" high Q, low cost woofer with reasonably clean midrange, and enough baffle area - path distance to support solid bass into the low 40's. Simple as possible crossover.... and suddenly you have a viable speaker. Many compromises of course and as have many have done, can be optimized for even better performance. Tonal balance is one of the nice performance perks for the design. Something so many commercial box speakers do not get right. And the little Vifa has many modern tech features that enable it to deliver surprisingly low distortion for virtually no money.
jwjarch... As stated above, the Manzanita and Manzanita Ultra are quite flexible in terms of a viable, tunable crossover. The two main differences between the Manzanita and Ultra are operating efficiency and low end extension. The Ultra of course with its much larger baffle is about 2 db or so more efficient and adds a half octave of bass extension. As for tweaks, the usual pad resistor and High Pass capacitor adjustments apply. You are very close to where you need to be with either crossover being initially implemented on either of both designs. It costs so little to adjust the pad & cap to get you to where you want to be. Again, flexible and easy. Tweaking goal(s) are tonal balance and clarity. You will know when you get there. Thake your time. Please let us know where you end up and what you think once you are there. Best J
spgjmf.. Another interesting variation woofer wise... Good to know you like the sound quality... The design, as you have experienced, is quite flexible... 12" -15" high Q, low cost woofer with reasonably clean midrange, and enough baffle area - path distance to support solid bass into the low 40's. Simple as possible crossover.... and suddenly you have a viable speaker. Many compromises of course and as have many have done, can be optimized for even better performance. Tonal balance is one of the nice performance perks for the design. Something so many commercial box speakers do not get right. And the little Vifa has many modern tech features that enable it to deliver surprisingly low distortion for virtually no money.
jwjarch... As stated above, the Manzanita and Manzanita Ultra are quite flexible in terms of a viable, tunable crossover. The two main differences between the Manzanita and Ultra are operating efficiency and low end extension. The Ultra of course with its much larger baffle is about 2 db or so more efficient and adds a half octave of bass extension. As for tweaks, the usual pad resistor and High Pass capacitor adjustments apply. You are very close to where you need to be with either crossover being initially implemented on either of both designs. It costs so little to adjust the pad & cap to get you to where you want to be. Again, flexible and easy. Tweaking goal(s) are tonal balance and clarity. You will know when you get there. Thake your time. Please let us know where you end up and what you think once you are there. Best J
Hi John,
Awesome job keeping this project alive for 10 years. I'm one of these Europeans who can't get the GRS unless I'm willing to spend 55$ extra for just shipping.
You mentioned the Tymphany NE123W-08 4" somewhere in the thread, which is available here for about 90$. It was in a commercial build you said and would need tweaking the design. It doesn't seem to be on your current commercial offers; would you mind sharing the details if it's definitive no longer for sale from you?
Awesome job keeping this project alive for 10 years. I'm one of these Europeans who can't get the GRS unless I'm willing to spend 55$ extra for just shipping.
You mentioned the Tymphany NE123W-08 4" somewhere in the thread, which is available here for about 90$. It was in a commercial build you said and would need tweaking the design. It doesn't seem to be on your current commercial offers; would you mind sharing the details if it's definitive no longer for sale from you?
No, not really. I did notice that in the trial version of BASTA we can see the baffle attenuation, but can't subtract it from the FR plot. I exported the FR and the baffle response and combined them in another software. The results weren't too accurate as far as I could tell.
I no longer have the GRS 15 so can't verify. Maybe John has mesurements that he can lend me and I'll be able to double check against BASTA
I no longer have the GRS 15 so can't verify. Maybe John has mesurements that he can lend me and I'll be able to double check against BASTA
Thanks gazzagazza. If that's all I can give it a chance and let my ears do the work.
And indeed Brexvold I saw that post as well, but there is not a lot of info on that speaker and nobody reported any experiences.
The Peerless NE123W-08 4" looks like an improvement over the current cheaper woofer as the specs like the frame, cooling and magnets are better.
And indeed Brexvold I saw that post as well, but there is not a lot of info on that speaker and nobody reported any experiences.
The Peerless NE123W-08 4" looks like an improvement over the current cheaper woofer as the specs like the frame, cooling and magnets are better.
For many years I've been shackled up with a couple of venerable JBL monitors that although they do spell out details in the soundscape never give this magic moment where you are swimming in the sound rather than listening.
I've been following the ongoing Lynn Olson thread for years. I really like Lynn's perspectives on sound reproduction and was so intent on going with whatever came from that direction. A solution never seemed to materialise though. I was just about going to build a onken + compression driver/horn combo as a substitute derived from that discussion and then I stumbled on this thread.
A little workshop adventure later I finshed a couple of ultras built out of 2cm OSB and some leftovers.
Last night I listened to Ibrahim Maaloufs Illusions on the ultra's and my hastily completed ultra derivation, and I both laughed and cried. Never before have I been this close to music that I love. When the speakers are situated just right in the room and I'm in the sweet spot, they completely dissappear. Now I'm a little sorry I didn't build these years ago.
I've had to exhange the warm sounding acurus amp with a much more balanced sony es amp. And I'm happily rediscovering music that I thought I knew.
Error 400 (Bad Request)!!1
What I have built is really quite shoddily put together, as I wanted to try it out before putting much more work into making thick solid wood baffles. But none the less they play amazingly.
Trying the seas FA22RCZ + 2 GRS15 confirmed that I really wanted more air/volume in the mid upper register. I listen to a lot of brass music and the TC9FD18 doesn't seem to cut it there. I'm planning on also adding a planar tweeter and maybe letting the FA22RCZ sit a little deeper in the baffle. Any comments on baffle size with two woofers? I definitely got the bass extension but at the expense of some muddiness. Also while way more ridgid than the regular ultras this definitely resonates when played at higher levels. Is the best solution sand in the baffle?
I know Pano says my basta response is weirdly optimistic, but I have to start somewhere.
Woofers: 6mH, fullrange: 60uF + Rs 2ohm Rp / 3ohm. Bypass capacitor is that a prudent suggestion for this tweeter setup?
Other suggestions for xo and simulation software heartily appreciated.
Or should I rather get a measuring setup instead?
Thanks for making this project John.
I've been following the ongoing Lynn Olson thread for years. I really like Lynn's perspectives on sound reproduction and was so intent on going with whatever came from that direction. A solution never seemed to materialise though. I was just about going to build a onken + compression driver/horn combo as a substitute derived from that discussion and then I stumbled on this thread.
A little workshop adventure later I finshed a couple of ultras built out of 2cm OSB and some leftovers.
Last night I listened to Ibrahim Maaloufs Illusions on the ultra's and my hastily completed ultra derivation, and I both laughed and cried. Never before have I been this close to music that I love. When the speakers are situated just right in the room and I'm in the sweet spot, they completely dissappear. Now I'm a little sorry I didn't build these years ago.
I've had to exhange the warm sounding acurus amp with a much more balanced sony es amp. And I'm happily rediscovering music that I thought I knew.
Error 400 (Bad Request)!!1
What I have built is really quite shoddily put together, as I wanted to try it out before putting much more work into making thick solid wood baffles. But none the less they play amazingly.
Trying the seas FA22RCZ + 2 GRS15 confirmed that I really wanted more air/volume in the mid upper register. I listen to a lot of brass music and the TC9FD18 doesn't seem to cut it there. I'm planning on also adding a planar tweeter and maybe letting the FA22RCZ sit a little deeper in the baffle. Any comments on baffle size with two woofers? I definitely got the bass extension but at the expense of some muddiness. Also while way more ridgid than the regular ultras this definitely resonates when played at higher levels. Is the best solution sand in the baffle?
I know Pano says my basta response is weirdly optimistic, but I have to start somewhere.
Woofers: 6mH, fullrange: 60uF + Rs 2ohm Rp / 3ohm. Bypass capacitor is that a prudent suggestion for this tweeter setup?
Other suggestions for xo and simulation software heartily appreciated.
Or should I rather get a measuring setup instead?
Thanks for making this project John.
Seem to be having major computer issues today.... A couple more points....
Very few speakers seem to connect with the music. Most are overly complex and over priced. Too much marketing, and not a lot of true design - engineering work.
A big part of the problem is cosmetic presentation. When you are purchasing a commercial speaker, the majority of the money is spent on appearance. If it happens to sound acceptable, so much the better! WAF consequences.
There are a few out there that do provide a good price to performance ratio. Very few! With Ultra, we are using two drivers that together at the point of manufacture likely cost less than $15.00 to manufacture for the pair!! How can they work so well when properly implemented?
Truth is, the vast majority of high end speakers use drivers of very low cost to the manufacturer. Again, the money is diverted to how the speaker appears, not to it's stated function of sonic performance.
These issues have a lot to do with way so many commercial speaker do not connect with the music as you have described your connection!
It will be interesting to see you your larger project with the Seas 8" full range evolves. You are doing something very similar to the Manzanita Ultra Plus. Great speaker that commercially did not sell well mainly due to it's size and simplicity. So many have been conditioned to a perspective that if the speaker is not complex or sells for many thousands of dollars it just can't be any good! Marketers at work again.
Good luck with your pursuit and let us know how it turns out.
Very few speakers seem to connect with the music. Most are overly complex and over priced. Too much marketing, and not a lot of true design - engineering work.
A big part of the problem is cosmetic presentation. When you are purchasing a commercial speaker, the majority of the money is spent on appearance. If it happens to sound acceptable, so much the better! WAF consequences.
There are a few out there that do provide a good price to performance ratio. Very few! With Ultra, we are using two drivers that together at the point of manufacture likely cost less than $15.00 to manufacture for the pair!! How can they work so well when properly implemented?
Truth is, the vast majority of high end speakers use drivers of very low cost to the manufacturer. Again, the money is diverted to how the speaker appears, not to it's stated function of sonic performance.
These issues have a lot to do with way so many commercial speaker do not connect with the music as you have described your connection!
It will be interesting to see you your larger project with the Seas 8" full range evolves. You are doing something very similar to the Manzanita Ultra Plus. Great speaker that commercially did not sell well mainly due to it's size and simplicity. So many have been conditioned to a perspective that if the speaker is not complex or sells for many thousands of dollars it just can't be any good! Marketers at work again.
Good luck with your pursuit and let us know how it turns out.
Best sonically, maybe, but a pain in the butt to build and move around!
Glad that you are getting good results with your build. I had the slightly muddiness in the low end with 2XGRS15. Was never sure if it was my crap baffle or something else. No one else seemed to notice it.
John often builds baffles that are 30mm or more thick. I'd go down that route before trying sand. Do the simple things first like thickness and bracing.
Seems like I missed the other photo:
Ultra derivation
Sure I concur, people are readily and willingly duped. As in most other product categories. And then there's a whole lot of snakeoil being sold, because the science behind the scenes actually is pretty advanced, and needs a lot of practical experience too.
Also WAF which is a crazy concept when you are a firm believer of the form follows function design doctrine.
Btw. I should have gone for the goldwoods insted of the grs. They match the sensitivity of the seas much better. But then I couldn't draw comparisons to the Ultras :b
They sure do, thanks
Ultra derivation
Sure I concur, people are readily and willingly duped. As in most other product categories. And then there's a whole lot of snakeoil being sold, because the science behind the scenes actually is pretty advanced, and needs a lot of practical experience too.
Also WAF which is a crazy concept when you are a firm believer of the form follows function design doctrine.
Btw. I should have gone for the goldwoods insted of the grs. They match the sensitivity of the seas much better. But then I couldn't draw comparisons to the Ultras :b
They sure do, thanks
I get the picture, sure.
I'll make a more massive baffle then. One could also put sand in a box on the bottom, that would still dampen it right?
Time alignment of drivers would not be an issue? The newest version of manzanita has the woofers mounted from the back, that makes them even more offset from the fullrange.
I wondered the same thing. I think there is a good reason that the Quad 2812, etc.,
Quad 2812 Electrostatic | The Absolute Sound
and the Jamo R 907
Jamo Reference R 907 loudspeaker | Stereophile.com
have those struts in the back, especially when you consider the actual magnitude of the excursion of the mid/high driver's cone in reproduicng frequencies within its bandwidth vs that of the movement of the baffle in response to the movement of the bass driver(s') cone with its not-inconsiderable mass.
At the very least, this might be a good reason to isolate the upper driver from rigid attachment to the baffle, as Siegfried Linkwitz did with the mid of his Orion:
ORION Revision 1
A strut like the Jamo's, but in wood, could serve the dual purpose of bracing the main panel and providing support for the mid.
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The manzi and ultra builds have 2x2 wood pieces running up each side of the baffle. It isn't perfect but it does make the baffle pretty stiff.
My ultra build has two layers of plywood and the 2x2's. It's pretty solid.
An earlier open baffle build that also used a 15" driver had 3 layers of wood but no 2x2's on the sides. It was quite stiff, too.
There are a lot of ways to get there. Just pick the one that you'll actually build.
My ultra build has two layers of plywood and the 2x2's. It's pretty solid.
An earlier open baffle build that also used a 15" driver had 3 layers of wood but no 2x2's on the sides. It was quite stiff, too.
There are a lot of ways to get there. Just pick the one that you'll actually build.
Concerning baffle stiffness issue.... The a key goal supporting the original intent of the project was simplicity and lowest possible cost. Simple with minimal material cost and minimal fabrication - construction cost(s) & effort. A speaker you can make with a hand or $30 jig saw if that is all you have! True affordable hi-fi for the masses! Ok, a bit over the top there!
Yes, a ridged 1.5" thick baffle with added bracing will work a bit better than a 3/4" thick baffle with the one coveat of added work required to the rear area behind the Vifa so it can breath. Oh yeah, added complexity and cost.
General design and crossover correctness overwhelm the slight advantage of a heavier baffle. As we have always stressed, the builder has a wide latitude relative to construction of the project and can inexpensively experiment to their delight. Ok, I will go away now............. J
Yes, a ridged 1.5" thick baffle with added bracing will work a bit better than a 3/4" thick baffle with the one coveat of added work required to the rear area behind the Vifa so it can breath. Oh yeah, added complexity and cost.
General design and crossover correctness overwhelm the slight advantage of a heavier baffle. As we have always stressed, the builder has a wide latitude relative to construction of the project and can inexpensively experiment to their delight. Ok, I will go away now............. J