Thanks for elaborating in this issue, John! I finally stumbled across the recommendation to rout out a significant relief of a 4.5" diameter, 7/16" deep circle behind the little Vifa. In modifying one baffle, my old router's depth adjustment lock slipped and went clear through. No big deal, I've gotten far faster at making these, and a quick trip to Lowes along with a couple hours generating sawdust produced a new speaker better than the original. Made a 5" circular relief just to be sure. Probably should use screws with nuts and washers now since there's precious little material for wood screws now.
A little hard to compare the new speaker with the unmodified one that has a small 45deg relief, but it seems to make the improvement I was hoping for - a less glaring upper midrange. It was the one aspect that could make speakers tiring with some material.
Cam
A little hard to compare the new speaker with the unmodified one that has a small 45deg relief, but it seems to make the improvement I was hoping for - a less glaring upper midrange. It was the one aspect that could make speakers tiring with some material.
Cam
Maybe john will remember.
Is it the scattering due to the basket that's the concern or the output above 5kHz?
Two things, on the European based alternative to the PE GRS 15... Have asked the forum members for potential alternatives a couple of times. But don't recall receiving much in terms of a reply complete enough to make any recommendations.
So lets set some specification boundaries....
15" class woofer with a cone area of at least 820 sq. cm.
Qts of at least 1.0
Xmax of at least 4.mm peak
FS around 30 Hz
Reasonably smooth mid range response - break up, with break up at or above 1,500 hz. Break up should not be over 5 db in magnitude.
87- 90 db net efficiency
100 watts RMS power handling
4 or 8 ohm. A 4 ohm candidate has the advantage of requiring a smaller low pass inductor, but may require some re-design work.
And of course current production from a known & reliable manufacturer.
Should cost around 30-50 euros. Seeing a response curve will help a lot.
2nd subject
The Vifa frame is very open so reflections from it are minimal and do not require any correction or remediation. One of it's better attributes.
So lets set some specification boundaries....
15" class woofer with a cone area of at least 820 sq. cm.
Qts of at least 1.0
Xmax of at least 4.mm peak
FS around 30 Hz
Reasonably smooth mid range response - break up, with break up at or above 1,500 hz. Break up should not be over 5 db in magnitude.
87- 90 db net efficiency
100 watts RMS power handling
4 or 8 ohm. A 4 ohm candidate has the advantage of requiring a smaller low pass inductor, but may require some re-design work.
And of course current production from a known & reliable manufacturer.
Should cost around 30-50 euros. Seeing a response curve will help a lot.
2nd subject
The Vifa frame is very open so reflections from it are minimal and do not require any correction or remediation. One of it's better attributes.
I don't understand, if it's not scattering from the frame that's the problem, is it that we don't want rear radiation above 5-7kHz?
The effects of rear radiation reflections (back wall) above 5 K or so in an OB set up are very unpredictable. I have found OB set ups that have significant rear output above 5-7K tend to lose focus and seem much more sensitive to set up and different rear wall composition(s). By composition, I mean things like windows, or wainscoting, or built in books shelves and so on.
And higher frequencies will "walk" across the rear of the baffle and diffract at the outer edges of the baffle in un-predictable ways to boot.
So the magnet / spider assembly on most mid range - H.F. drivers does us a favor by shadowing the inner part of the cone that would be most likely to radiate rearward above 5-7K. The driver spider also absorbs high frequencies too. I find this H.F. damping to be a positive thing. It all seems to add up to a more uniform and life like power response at the listening position.
And higher frequencies will "walk" across the rear of the baffle and diffract at the outer edges of the baffle in un-predictable ways to boot.
So the magnet / spider assembly on most mid range - H.F. drivers does us a favor by shadowing the inner part of the cone that would be most likely to radiate rearward above 5-7K. The driver spider also absorbs high frequencies too. I find this H.F. damping to be a positive thing. It all seems to add up to a more uniform and life like power response at the listening position.
I've been experimenting with a rear firing tweeter, and I've found with some material it works very well, a useful option to have
Brand availability question for our European friends
Curious... Are PRV products available in Europe? Can't seem to get a straight answer out of PRV. Since I am in the USA, PRV seems to be protecting their US dealers.... OK... I understand that... but it seems silly to me not to tell me about established European distribution if it exists. Damn lawyers I suspect. So if anyone can get back to me on this it would be much appreciated! John
Curious... Are PRV products available in Europe? Can't seem to get a straight answer out of PRV. Since I am in the USA, PRV seems to be protecting their US dealers.... OK... I understand that... but it seems silly to me not to tell me about established European distribution if it exists. Damn lawyers I suspect. So if anyone can get back to me on this it would be much appreciated! John
Another Very Happy Manzanita Owner (Finally)
After finishing the 5" circular rear clearances for the little Vifas on both speakers, I found the need for a long-into-the-night listening session, rediscovering as many LPs and CDs as 5 or so hours allows. Helps to have the house to myself right now! A wonderful side effect of these speakers now is that there are now many more enjoyable recordings in my collection. In particular the piano sound is better than any system I've ever had. That's critical for me. The added low end and dynamics really helps.
I'm finally very glad to have undertaken this superbly high-value project! A great deal of time was used and sawdust generated, much of it working out how to rout the squircle recess for the full-ranger. I ended up with a template that made a perfect recess ONCE, but when I used it for the final baffles not so perfect. A few mm large. I would REALLY prefer to have been able to mount the small drivers from the rear in a circular hole, rounded over from the front. This should have been way simpler and easier, but of course a router would be essential, obviating some of the extreme cost-cutting objective. Now that I can experience the success of John's crazy-simple design, I am willing to devote more time and money to optimizing it, or trying a new OB project that surpasses it.
So, to anyone still deciding if the DIY Manzanita is worth the effort.. YES! BUT pay attention to the basics: follow the plan's dimensions, make sure the baffle is solid and buzz-free, give the Vifas rear room to breathe, have a good selection of resistors to play with as break-in happens and you learn what the you and your room require, and I recommend the woofer trap circuit - well worth the small cost.
Thanks again to John, Pano, and several others who contributed valuable experiences.
Cam
After finishing the 5" circular rear clearances for the little Vifas on both speakers, I found the need for a long-into-the-night listening session, rediscovering as many LPs and CDs as 5 or so hours allows. Helps to have the house to myself right now! A wonderful side effect of these speakers now is that there are now many more enjoyable recordings in my collection. In particular the piano sound is better than any system I've ever had. That's critical for me. The added low end and dynamics really helps.
I'm finally very glad to have undertaken this superbly high-value project! A great deal of time was used and sawdust generated, much of it working out how to rout the squircle recess for the full-ranger. I ended up with a template that made a perfect recess ONCE, but when I used it for the final baffles not so perfect. A few mm large. I would REALLY prefer to have been able to mount the small drivers from the rear in a circular hole, rounded over from the front. This should have been way simpler and easier, but of course a router would be essential, obviating some of the extreme cost-cutting objective. Now that I can experience the success of John's crazy-simple design, I am willing to devote more time and money to optimizing it, or trying a new OB project that surpasses it.
So, to anyone still deciding if the DIY Manzanita is worth the effort.. YES! BUT pay attention to the basics: follow the plan's dimensions, make sure the baffle is solid and buzz-free, give the Vifas rear room to breathe, have a good selection of resistors to play with as break-in happens and you learn what the you and your room require, and I recommend the woofer trap circuit - well worth the small cost.
Thanks again to John, Pano, and several others who contributed valuable experiences.
Cam
Cam... good to know you are satisfied with your Manzi's! Thanks for sharing your comments. Much appreciated!
Can tell by your listening comments the Manzi is doing things as intended. One common thing about the Manzi is it inspires users to go through their music collections. Re-visit recordings that had been set aside for this or that reason. It is kind of universal. So when I read that is what you are doing I know you are in good company!
The Mazi is a KISS speaker if ever there were. Simple and funky to look at. But musical like few others anywhere near it's simplicity and cost to build.
This is what has always been intended. Enjoy!
Can tell by your listening comments the Manzi is doing things as intended. One common thing about the Manzi is it inspires users to go through their music collections. Re-visit recordings that had been set aside for this or that reason. It is kind of universal. So when I read that is what you are doing I know you are in good company!
The Mazi is a KISS speaker if ever there were. Simple and funky to look at. But musical like few others anywhere near it's simplicity and cost to build.
This is what has always been intended. Enjoy!
OK.. I have been dropping hints about an updated DIY Manzanita... optimizing the design... with the main focus being a typical (what ever that is) builder, for an example, a apartment dweller (been there, - done that) being able to fabricate the updated design with basic wood working tools.
Main focus, keeping the component costs at an absolute minimum, keeping the wood working at an absolute minimum and keeping all the other aspects of the project as simple as possible.
The one aspect of this, and for that mater, any DIY project, is to decide, and or assume the abilities of the individual that would tackle the project. And most of us know the assume acronym... Don't make an *** out of you or me!
Let me be clear, when I say "abilities", I am speaking to real world, real life realities. You live in an apartment. Or a high end development with some crazy who is, ready, wants, Hell, can't wait to turn you in for home owners association restriction and so on. I am talking about personal realities. Then there is the WAF issue. Good luck on that one!
Getting back to it.... I intend to start releasing the latest design, tweaks and all. Don't expect much, more refinement - evolution than anything else. But, they do add up. A little more efficiency, a bit more dynamics. A slightly more reveling mid range. And most of this stuff can be retrofitted to existing Manzanita's.
Main focus, keeping the component costs at an absolute minimum, keeping the wood working at an absolute minimum and keeping all the other aspects of the project as simple as possible.
The one aspect of this, and for that mater, any DIY project, is to decide, and or assume the abilities of the individual that would tackle the project. And most of us know the assume acronym... Don't make an *** out of you or me!
Let me be clear, when I say "abilities", I am speaking to real world, real life realities. You live in an apartment. Or a high end development with some crazy who is, ready, wants, Hell, can't wait to turn you in for home owners association restriction and so on. I am talking about personal realities. Then there is the WAF issue. Good luck on that one!
Getting back to it.... I intend to start releasing the latest design, tweaks and all. Don't expect much, more refinement - evolution than anything else. But, they do add up. A little more efficiency, a bit more dynamics. A slightly more reveling mid range. And most of this stuff can be retrofitted to existing Manzanita's.
Hello!
I'm planning on building this type of speaker, but it's not going to be exactly like this.
I'll use Minidsp 2x4 HD for this speaker and the cheaper version for subwoofer.
Could you help me choosing the right crossover frequencys since i wasn't able to calculate them with the original crossover coil/cap attributes? Should i use 1st order like in this topic or use stronger since it's possible?
I'll be using the SLS12 and propably Peerless NE123W-08 4" or SCANSPEAK 10F/8414G10 which were both mentionet earlier. Which one do you think would be better? ScanSpeak can be bought in Finland, but Peerless looks better.
Baffle itself is going to be made from 2 different boards (like most two-way open baffles seems to be) since the WAF is real... So it's not propably going to sound similar to Manzanita. I'm going to make it same size tho.
I'm planning on building this type of speaker, but it's not going to be exactly like this.
I'll use Minidsp 2x4 HD for this speaker and the cheaper version for subwoofer.
Could you help me choosing the right crossover frequencys since i wasn't able to calculate them with the original crossover coil/cap attributes? Should i use 1st order like in this topic or use stronger since it's possible?
I'll be using the SLS12 and propably Peerless NE123W-08 4" or SCANSPEAK 10F/8414G10 which were both mentionet earlier. Which one do you think would be better? ScanSpeak can be bought in Finland, but Peerless looks better.
Baffle itself is going to be made from 2 different boards (like most two-way open baffles seems to be) since the WAF is real... So it's not propably going to sound similar to Manzanita. I'm going to make it same size tho.
What to do?
Good you want to do your own thing in this format.... But ... unfortunately, once you stray.... and with consideration to your premise... design priorities, you have defacto, reverted back to scratch.
There are just TOO many variables.... you just can't transfer the existing crossover. Once you change things to the degree you have stated, you are essentially back to square one.
I hate to write the above, because it is far from motivational, but I must be honest.
Let me know a bit more about what you have set in stone with your current design and I may be able to guide you in the correct direction.
Good you want to do your own thing in this format.... But ... unfortunately, once you stray.... and with consideration to your premise... design priorities, you have defacto, reverted back to scratch.
There are just TOO many variables.... you just can't transfer the existing crossover. Once you change things to the degree you have stated, you are essentially back to square one.
I hate to write the above, because it is far from motivational, but I must be honest.
Let me know a bit more about what you have set in stone with your current design and I may be able to guide you in the correct direction.
Ultra Plus
The Ultra Plus was always intended to be a commercial speaker. Buy it, plug it in and play it.
So... I never did the documentation and other steps required to make it a DIY project.
I suspect I may of hinted about it on the Manzanita thread... Don't remember... So many posts... and at 70 things can get a bit foggy!
Just out of curiosity, What are your goals?
The Ultra Plus was always intended to be a commercial speaker. Buy it, plug it in and play it.
So... I never did the documentation and other steps required to make it a DIY project.
I suspect I may of hinted about it on the Manzanita thread... Don't remember... So many posts... and at 70 things can get a bit foggy!
Just out of curiosity, What are your goals?
What to do?
Thank you for reply!
Things that has been set in stone:
Using Minidsp as high/low-pass filter and room correction. I also ordered microphone with minidsp.
Woofer size is 12" (so propably sls12 is the best choise)
Using 2 wood panels because of WAF, but it can be same size.
I also have Tangband 4" fullrange but i don't like the sound of them so it's not propably good for these speakers. Or maybe they should have notchfilter (or use minidsp to make them sound better)
TC9FD18 cost's 15€ + 20€ of postages from US so i was thinking that maybe i should just use those more expensive drivers if they have even better sound.
Thank you for reply!
Things that has been set in stone:
Using Minidsp as high/low-pass filter and room correction. I also ordered microphone with minidsp.
Woofer size is 12" (so propably sls12 is the best choise)
Using 2 wood panels because of WAF, but it can be same size.
I also have Tangband 4" fullrange but i don't like the sound of them so it's not propably good for these speakers. Or maybe they should have notchfilter (or use minidsp to make them sound better)
TC9FD18 cost's 15€ + 20€ of postages from US so i was thinking that maybe i should just use those more expensive drivers if they have even better sound.