I've used all three tweeters, the Vifa is the way to go, for sure.First off: I'd like to thank all the people who have contributed to this thread. It's most enjoyable reading - and thanks, of course, not least to John and Pano. I have done a "rough sketch" of The Manzanita speaker myself and taking its price tag into consideration it is a wonder. It compares favourably with for example the Pluto (with subwoofers). So I am definitely going to finish it.
However, in post #99 MisterTwister suggested that instead of the big inductor in series with the Peerless it was possible to use a smaller inductor and a parallel resistor. In posts #101 and #102 Pano reported good results too. MisterTwister's suggestion seems interesting because the big inductor is so expensive, and it would be possible to spend the money on thicker wire. Is the idea still valid - and has anybody experimented with it - or is there some dark drawback that I haven't discovered?
Best
Hans Jørgen
However, in post #99 MisterTwister suggested that instead of the big inductor in series with the Peerless it was possible to use a smaller inductor and a parallel resistor. In posts #101 and #102 Pano reported good results too. MisterTwister's suggestion seems interesting because the big inductor is so expensive, and it would be possible to spend the money on thicker wire. Is the idea still valid - and has anybody experimented with it - or is there some dark drawback that I haven't discovered?
Best
Hans Jørgen
Pano, Thanks for the reply.
One of my concerns before starting the project was how power greedy they really would be. But that concern was really put to shame. It is surprising how little they can make do with if you stay at reasonable listening levels, which I ususally do, so the power is not a big concern. As I don't own a simulation tool I would be happy if you were able to suggest component values as a starting point for experimentation (i.e. something to emulate the 20mH inductor - as far as I remember the one you suggested emulated a 12mH inductor).
One of my concerns before starting the project was how power greedy they really would be. But that concern was really put to shame. It is surprising how little they can make do with if you stay at reasonable listening levels, which I ususally do, so the power is not a big concern. As I don't own a simulation tool I would be happy if you were able to suggest component values as a starting point for experimentation (i.e. something to emulate the 20mH inductor - as far as I remember the one you suggested emulated a 12mH inductor).
You can trick the crossover by lowering the impedance of the woofer, thus needing a smaller inductor for the same crossover point. Below is a chart that shows the filter function using a 20mH inductor on the Peerless woofer (magenta) vs using a 12 mH inductor and 9R in parallel with the woofer. Very similar roll-off, with maybe a bit more damping in the L-R combo.
What's the trade off? Lower impedance. The impedance of the woofer + resistor doesn't rise back above 6 ohms until 1kHz. It hits a low of about 4 ohms. Not a problem by itself, but what happens when the Vifa is patched in? Where the woofer and the Vifa overlap, impedance may be very low. So low in that area that your amp may not like it.
Try it, but be aware of the impedance problem.
What's the trade off? Lower impedance. The impedance of the woofer + resistor doesn't rise back above 6 ohms until 1kHz. It hits a low of about 4 ohms. Not a problem by itself, but what happens when the Vifa is patched in? Where the woofer and the Vifa overlap, impedance may be very low. So low in that area that your amp may not like it.
Try it, but be aware of the impedance problem.
Hi,
Do you think this loudspeaker is feasible if only 40-50 cm distance to the front wall can be arranged, with at most 20 degree toe-in? The bass will be seriously lacking, but I could make monopole sub stands for ~100 Hz and below.
The place is not ideal for these kind of speakers, but I think it could be a reasonable alternative to a wall mounted full range + sub concept I have been planning. I have all the drivers already sitting on my shelf as leftovers from other projects.
Do you think this loudspeaker is feasible if only 40-50 cm distance to the front wall can be arranged, with at most 20 degree toe-in? The bass will be seriously lacking, but I could make monopole sub stands for ~100 Hz and below.
The place is not ideal for these kind of speakers, but I think it could be a reasonable alternative to a wall mounted full range + sub concept I have been planning. I have all the drivers already sitting on my shelf as leftovers from other projects.
If you have some heavy cardboard available you could make a trial Manzanita and get a feel for what the system will do at 50 CM. You will loose some of the open quality the speaker provides at a more optimum distance and there will also be some changes in the tonal balance (brighter upper mid range possibly). And as Pano commented, much of the bass below about 80 Hz or so will diminish. Just my $0.02 worth. Good luck!
In post #969 Albrerta asked if the Manzanitas are good or just cheap (to put it very bluntly). I have now come so far that the whole system is hooked up with the recommended crossover/compensation network and I'd like to share a couple of impressions. But first off some basic facts concerning associated equipment and things I compare with. I own a set of QUAD ESL63, a set of Orion 3.3 and a set of Pluto 2.2+. The Orions are driven by 8*50 Watt amplifiers (about 1 KVA trafos). I like them a lot but they still sound a bit "slow"/laid back/withdrawn and their ability to disappear and leave me with a rendering of the recorded acoustic event is actually less pronounced than that of the Plutos - this despite the fact that the Orions seem much less coloured than the Plutos. As for the Quads, they were/are an engineering wonder, but to my mind the unfortunate honest truth is that they can't compete with today's standards. They survive, as it were, because they are dipoles but they are lacking in clarity, lows and volume. I have listened to the Mazanits driven primarily by two power amplifiers. The first one at hand was a vintage Revox A78 Mrk II (about 2*50 W) which I have recently restored and as it was still being tested for stability I hooked this one up with the Manzanits. The sonic footprint of this amplifier is a fairly "soft" bottom end. The other one is a LM3886 chip amp with a massive power supply. This amp is, in my ears, very neutral and has a pretty solid and clear low register, but it severely lacks refinement in the upper registers. The upper registers of the Revox A78 are very listenable and overall not fatiguing at all.
Some preliminary notes on the Manzanitas: In my ears these speakers are very, very dry in the sense that they do not add any artefacts or "sonics" to the reproduction. The background behind the music is pitch black. I was listening to an old recording of Janis Ian's "Seventeen" and I don't think I have ever heard a speaker which rendered/made me feel the intimacy of her song so well before. The voice and the guitar were just there! Very very focused. One human being speaking to another human being.
The low register is still an unresolved question. I have listened to some organ music with very low pedal notes and it seems as if the speakers actually play the low notes (around 30 Hz I guess) (I have, of course, made measurements but as everybody knows the relationship between what one hears and the measurements in the case of OBs is quite problematic). The "trouble" is that if I compare the Manzanitas' reproduction with my Pluto/Subwoofer combination the Manzanitas still sound "clean" without the slight boominess that inevitably goes with ordinary closed box subwoofers. The Manzanitas sound "lean" in comparison with "fat" ordinary subwoofers. Also the very distinctive richness of for example NHØP's very low bass notes seems a bit under-exposed. What I, so far, can't decide is whether this lack of richness is the natural sound of a double bas or something lacking in the speakers. (I have heard NHØP live on quite a number of occasions, but sadly it is many years ago - and now he bestows bliss somewhere entirely out of this world.)
And yet another aspect: In terms of "airness" I'd say that one of the outstanding qualities of the Plutos is their disappearing act. They not only disappear from one's vision, they also disappear completely sonically. Due to their size the Manzanitas can't disappear visually to the same extent (unless you close your eyes) but sonically they almost - but only almost! - do the same trick.
To new builders: It seems to me that the Vifa TC9FD speakers needs quite some hours of "burning in" - in the beginning they sound almost harsh and peaky - but that more or less disappears after some hours.
Sorry for the long post. I post in the hope that others will share their experiences, but if there are too many words just skip it!
Some preliminary notes on the Manzanitas: In my ears these speakers are very, very dry in the sense that they do not add any artefacts or "sonics" to the reproduction. The background behind the music is pitch black. I was listening to an old recording of Janis Ian's "Seventeen" and I don't think I have ever heard a speaker which rendered/made me feel the intimacy of her song so well before. The voice and the guitar were just there! Very very focused. One human being speaking to another human being.
The low register is still an unresolved question. I have listened to some organ music with very low pedal notes and it seems as if the speakers actually play the low notes (around 30 Hz I guess) (I have, of course, made measurements but as everybody knows the relationship between what one hears and the measurements in the case of OBs is quite problematic). The "trouble" is that if I compare the Manzanitas' reproduction with my Pluto/Subwoofer combination the Manzanitas still sound "clean" without the slight boominess that inevitably goes with ordinary closed box subwoofers. The Manzanitas sound "lean" in comparison with "fat" ordinary subwoofers. Also the very distinctive richness of for example NHØP's very low bass notes seems a bit under-exposed. What I, so far, can't decide is whether this lack of richness is the natural sound of a double bas or something lacking in the speakers. (I have heard NHØP live on quite a number of occasions, but sadly it is many years ago - and now he bestows bliss somewhere entirely out of this world.)
And yet another aspect: In terms of "airness" I'd say that one of the outstanding qualities of the Plutos is their disappearing act. They not only disappear from one's vision, they also disappear completely sonically. Due to their size the Manzanitas can't disappear visually to the same extent (unless you close your eyes) but sonically they almost - but only almost! - do the same trick.
To new builders: It seems to me that the Vifa TC9FD speakers needs quite some hours of "burning in" - in the beginning they sound almost harsh and peaky - but that more or less disappears after some hours.
Sorry for the long post. I post in the hope that others will share their experiences, but if there are too many words just skip it!
Thank you for posting your impression(s)
Klarskov.... Thank you for posting... always good to learn how listeners react to the Manzi. The most interesting point you make relates to the lack of ringing this design has... both results of the box-less design and the simple crossover. Something George Short (North Creek Music System) once remarked about good speakers... they are.. well... quiet. A black back ground as you describe it. And I do appreciate your comment about the Manzi's ability relative to vocal reproduction. This is the area I concentrated on during crossover development. Hard to fool the human ear when it comes to vocal reproduction. This is an area I have found so many speakers of all designs and prices have real difficulties. The vocal quality is largely a result of the black back ground. No box talk. Very low energy storage, mechanically and electrically.
Thank you again for building the Manzanita and sharing your observations!
Best
John
Klarskov.... Thank you for posting... always good to learn how listeners react to the Manzi. The most interesting point you make relates to the lack of ringing this design has... both results of the box-less design and the simple crossover. Something George Short (North Creek Music System) once remarked about good speakers... they are.. well... quiet. A black back ground as you describe it. And I do appreciate your comment about the Manzi's ability relative to vocal reproduction. This is the area I concentrated on during crossover development. Hard to fool the human ear when it comes to vocal reproduction. This is an area I have found so many speakers of all designs and prices have real difficulties. The vocal quality is largely a result of the black back ground. No box talk. Very low energy storage, mechanically and electrically.
Thank you again for building the Manzanita and sharing your observations!
Best
John
Thanks for sharing your impressions, and other guys who responded before, I really want to build it, unfortunately have to wait for months. FYI, now it's -30°C outside here.....