prior to building this I'd been looking for a design to do. I have measuring equipment but lack the skills/confidence to execute a proper three way. Two way speakers with 7" woofers do nothing for me.
I listen to music mostly through headphones and feel that I can tell a well balanced from one that isn't. I've owned, built and listened to a number of two ways and got bored with them. Also, I owned some large 3 ways JBLs with dual 8" woofers which extended to low 30's but had a terrible hole in the midrange.
back to manzanitas; I've had my neighbour bring his Tannoy dc6 which are decent enough, I guess. There is no comparison between the two. Tannoy does not extend to 45 Hz as they claim and have hardly any baffle step compensation. the midrange sounds as if the speakers are placed in a cardboard box. We listened to them for about five minutes and that was enough.
The build is easy enough; the only thing that requires some attention is the cutout for the Vifa. The skeleton is from plywood and the face you see is an oak panel. I first cut out a 4" circle in the plywood, then I made a ring from 5 mm mdf which I glued inside the cutout. Obviously, this looked messy so I glued that oak panel on top. If you are using this approach you can carefully cut out Vifa's profile in the cover which will give you a countersunk look. I was just too lazy. I took about 8 hours to complete the build whichis not that bad. If you get up nice and early on a saturday you can complete be the evering.
In conclusion, I highly recommend anyone considering this to build it. I have them removed about 24-25" from the back wall and they work OK. If move them closer into the room, I can notice a difference but even in my compromised position they work fine.
I listen to music mostly through headphones and feel that I can tell a well balanced from one that isn't. I've owned, built and listened to a number of two ways and got bored with them. Also, I owned some large 3 ways JBLs with dual 8" woofers which extended to low 30's but had a terrible hole in the midrange.
back to manzanitas; I've had my neighbour bring his Tannoy dc6 which are decent enough, I guess. There is no comparison between the two. Tannoy does not extend to 45 Hz as they claim and have hardly any baffle step compensation. the midrange sounds as if the speakers are placed in a cardboard box. We listened to them for about five minutes and that was enough.
The build is easy enough; the only thing that requires some attention is the cutout for the Vifa. The skeleton is from plywood and the face you see is an oak panel. I first cut out a 4" circle in the plywood, then I made a ring from 5 mm mdf which I glued inside the cutout. Obviously, this looked messy so I glued that oak panel on top. If you are using this approach you can carefully cut out Vifa's profile in the cover which will give you a countersunk look. I was just too lazy. I took about 8 hours to complete the build whichis not that bad. If you get up nice and early on a saturday you can complete be the evering.
In conclusion, I highly recommend anyone considering this to build it. I have them removed about 24-25" from the back wall and they work OK. If move them closer into the room, I can notice a difference but even in my compromised position they work fine.
Manzanita feed back
Hello Laufer..
Thanks for the construction and personal listening impressions - other systems comparision(s) feed back. Happy to know you are enjoying the Manzanita design.
Appreciate you sharing your fabrication methods - experience, esp, the Vifa aspects.
One thing future builders may consider is a sandwich BAFFLE CONSTRUCITION approach, which, if I have read your post correctly, may be the simplest way to go for those with limited tools.
The Vifa's rear counter sink is very important for the total system to perform properly. The Vifa's rear radiation is so important to sound stage, imaging and overall tonal balance.
So.. one could take a 1/2" OR 3/4" plywood (or mdf) sheet and cut out the standard Peerless, well, cut out, and a 5" or 6" Vifa cut out. Then add a 1/4" plywood sheet on top of the 1/2" or 3/4" with the same Peerless cut out as employed with the 1/2" - 3/4" ply/MDF and at the Vifa location use the standard Vifa cut out (78.5 mm) per Vifa specifications. Then of course mate (glue)the 1/2" - 3/4 rear baffle sheet and 1/4" front sheets together. A bit of proper alignment and glue and you have a simple and appropriate baffle board.
Hello Laufer..
Thanks for the construction and personal listening impressions - other systems comparision(s) feed back. Happy to know you are enjoying the Manzanita design.
Appreciate you sharing your fabrication methods - experience, esp, the Vifa aspects.
One thing future builders may consider is a sandwich BAFFLE CONSTRUCITION approach, which, if I have read your post correctly, may be the simplest way to go for those with limited tools.
The Vifa's rear counter sink is very important for the total system to perform properly. The Vifa's rear radiation is so important to sound stage, imaging and overall tonal balance. So.. one could take a 1/2" OR 3/4" plywood (or mdf) sheet and cut out the standard Peerless, well, cut out, and a 5" or 6" Vifa cut out. Then add a 1/4" plywood sheet on top of the 1/2" or 3/4" with the same Peerless cut out as employed with the 1/2" - 3/4" ply/MDF and at the Vifa location use the standard Vifa cut out (78.5 mm) per Vifa specifications. Then of course mate (glue)the 1/2" - 3/4 rear baffle sheet and 1/4" front sheets together. A bit of proper alignment and glue and you have a simple and appropriate baffle board.
Hey John,
What effect does the type of stand have? I temporarily have the Manzy's on some old sub cabinets that are 16" cubed. The front is flush with the baffle. I figured there would be issues similarly if you were making this a floor stander, plus there's 8" extension on the rear past the base of the Manzy. This must have an effect.
What effect does the type of stand have? I temporarily have the Manzy's on some old sub cabinets that are 16" cubed. The front is flush with the baffle. I figured there would be issues similarly if you were making this a floor stander, plus there's 8" extension on the rear past the base of the Manzy. This must have an effect.
Manzi support stand thoughts
One thing nice about the Manzanita is that it is generally flexable relative to how it is supported.
With that said, the two areas that do have significant effect(s) on the overall sound quality are the much previously discussed distance from the rear wall, and hight of the Vifa off the floor. The crossover and baffle layout assume the speaker will be up off the floor with the Vifa center approximately 36"-42" (ear level for a seated listener). And, that whatever the Manzi sits on is stable and non-resonant.
It is of course good to limit near field reflections in all directions. So, sitting the Manzi on a table that extends all the way back to the rear wall will degrade the performance some. You have the dual issues of early rear reflections and a quasi resonate cavity under the table. These issues are farily minor, but do effect performance. Mainly some loss of clarity and added ripples in the frequency response.
As I have said before, the Manzi's light weight and size invites experimentation relative to placement. You can sit it on a stack of books if needed to find that right height and rear wall distance that suits your taste and room realities.
One thing nice about the Manzanita is that it is generally flexable relative to how it is supported.
With that said, the two areas that do have significant effect(s) on the overall sound quality are the much previously discussed distance from the rear wall, and hight of the Vifa off the floor. The crossover and baffle layout assume the speaker will be up off the floor with the Vifa center approximately 36"-42" (ear level for a seated listener). And, that whatever the Manzi sits on is stable and non-resonant.
It is of course good to limit near field reflections in all directions. So, sitting the Manzi on a table that extends all the way back to the rear wall will degrade the performance some. You have the dual issues of early rear reflections and a quasi resonate cavity under the table. These issues are farily minor, but do effect performance. Mainly some loss of clarity and added ripples in the frequency response.
As I have said before, the Manzi's light weight and size invites experimentation relative to placement. You can sit it on a stack of books if needed to find that right height and rear wall distance that suits your taste and room realities.
John and Pano, might I suggest doing a short write-up on the Manzi and putting it up in the articles section? This is a very popular design, very easy to build, great sounding, and well supported on the forum. Besides, there is dearth of speaker articles. This one would go very well along with Morgan Jones' article on the full range driver.
Manzi build article
Need to defer to Pano on this. I am the design guy, Pano is the publicist guy. At the moment Pano is pretty busy so I do not want to commit him to a new project.
But it does sound (no pun intended) like a solid idea.
There are so many levels to fine tuning the Manzi to personalize it. Lots of crossover tweaks and so forth.
So... let see what Pano is game for and move forward as time and available effort will allow.
John
Need to defer to Pano on this. I am the design guy, Pano is the publicist guy. At the moment Pano is pretty busy so I do not want to commit him to a new project.
But it does sound (no pun intended) like a solid idea.
There are so many levels to fine tuning the Manzi to personalize it. Lots of crossover tweaks and so forth.
So... let see what Pano is game for and move forward as time and available effort will allow.
John
Thank you John and Pano. While I'm not well versed on the techincal side, what I understand about OTL's is that large impedence swings are more of an issue then lower overall inpedence levels. I'm guessing speaker efficiency factors into this somewhere? It appears to me that the Manzantia's have a relatively flat curve and this shouldn't be a problem. Reasonable conclusion?
Unfortunetly, I don't understand how phase works then the very basic, "in or out of phase". Next stop Wikipedia; "An amplifier with lower phase margin will ring[nb 1] for longer and an amplifier with more phase margin will take a longer time to rise to the voltage step's final level". Looks like I need to find out what the applicable "phase margins" is to answer this question. Off to the foot races again!....hoping to make it to that 3/4" material sitting in the garage waiting for drivers.
Thanks again for the help!
Unfortunetly, I don't understand how phase works then the very basic, "in or out of phase". Next stop Wikipedia; "An amplifier with lower phase margin will ring[nb 1] for longer and an amplifier with more phase margin will take a longer time to rise to the voltage step's final level". Looks like I need to find out what the applicable "phase margins" is to answer this question. Off to the foot races again!....hoping to make it to that 3/4" material sitting in the garage waiting for drivers.
Thanks again for the help!
Manzi crossover tweak summary
Manzi crossover tweaks.
The following is based around the Peerless - Vifa system with the crossover layout shown at post 455. I will go through the crossover element by element.
L1. You can upgrade to a toroidal (14 Ga, 18.0 Mh PE P/N 255-844) These have tended to measure more like 19.5 Mh. Very expensive, but does provide a touch better dynamics and a bit more woofer efficiency due the much lower resistance.
C1. Two areas to play. One is the cap value 5.5-6.2 MFD. Lower value, thinner and slightly brighter mid range. Higher, a fuller midrange. Much above 6.2 Mfd and you drift into a darker overall presentation. Congestion also sets in if you stray too far from the standard 6.0 Mfd center value.
Second area is the brand of cap. Kinda like tube rolling. Generally, the higher dollar caps have less grain, tend to be brighter - smoother and seem to improve resolution - efficiency oh so slightly. If you stray outside of the 5.5-6.2 Mfd range, R2 may need to be changed to maintain proper crossover point.
R2. 4.5 - 6 ohms can be usable. Drivers do vary in efficiency, rooms in high frequency absorption - reflection, so... you can adjust R2 to compensate. I prefer 4.8 - 5.6 ohms in my listening room. And the 4.8 - 5.6 ohm range seems to provide the best phase tracking with a C1 value of 6.0 Mfd. Lower than 4.5 ohms and the cap value has to adjusted upward to maintain the correct crossover frequency and rate. Much over 6 ohms the cap value need to be compensated downward. Fortunately, the Manzi is fairly forgiving relative to the C1 - R2 relationship.
L2. This component needs to stay put as is. Push comes to shove, 1.5 mh up to 2.25 Mh is way better than nothing. The lower values will brighten things up, the higher will darken the tonal balance. Lower resistance air core inductors do improve midrange quality. I have even tried 8 ga.! However, the modest improvement is hard to justify given the astronomical cost of 8-12 Ga. inductors. The 14 Ga. Perfect Lay air core is a good compromise. 18 Ga. air core and higher Ga. really degrade the effectiveness of the trap as well as the overall sound quality. BTW, stick with air core designs if possible. The speaker will play of course with iron core inductors, but you can hear them. Even 15 Ga. I.C. impart a grain like quality. Have not tried a Toroidal. If I get around to it I will report back.
R1. This resistor also influences the brightness and overall character of the midrange and treble of the system. 8 - 25 ohms seems to be a good range. As time goes on and the Vifa breaks in, 12-15 ohms seems to be the best. This assumes of course L2 is at, or very close to 2.0 Mh. I currently use 2.0 mh for L2 and 15 Ohms for R1.
Hope these observations help.
John
Manzi crossover tweaks.
The following is based around the Peerless - Vifa system with the crossover layout shown at post 455. I will go through the crossover element by element.
L1. You can upgrade to a toroidal (14 Ga, 18.0 Mh PE P/N 255-844) These have tended to measure more like 19.5 Mh. Very expensive, but does provide a touch better dynamics and a bit more woofer efficiency due the much lower resistance.
C1. Two areas to play. One is the cap value 5.5-6.2 MFD. Lower value, thinner and slightly brighter mid range. Higher, a fuller midrange. Much above 6.2 Mfd and you drift into a darker overall presentation. Congestion also sets in if you stray too far from the standard 6.0 Mfd center value.
Second area is the brand of cap. Kinda like tube rolling. Generally, the higher dollar caps have less grain, tend to be brighter - smoother and seem to improve resolution - efficiency oh so slightly. If you stray outside of the 5.5-6.2 Mfd range, R2 may need to be changed to maintain proper crossover point.
R2. 4.5 - 6 ohms can be usable. Drivers do vary in efficiency, rooms in high frequency absorption - reflection, so... you can adjust R2 to compensate. I prefer 4.8 - 5.6 ohms in my listening room. And the 4.8 - 5.6 ohm range seems to provide the best phase tracking with a C1 value of 6.0 Mfd. Lower than 4.5 ohms and the cap value has to adjusted upward to maintain the correct crossover frequency and rate. Much over 6 ohms the cap value need to be compensated downward. Fortunately, the Manzi is fairly forgiving relative to the C1 - R2 relationship.
L2. This component needs to stay put as is. Push comes to shove, 1.5 mh up to 2.25 Mh is way better than nothing. The lower values will brighten things up, the higher will darken the tonal balance. Lower resistance air core inductors do improve midrange quality. I have even tried 8 ga.! However, the modest improvement is hard to justify given the astronomical cost of 8-12 Ga. inductors. The 14 Ga. Perfect Lay air core is a good compromise. 18 Ga. air core and higher Ga. really degrade the effectiveness of the trap as well as the overall sound quality. BTW, stick with air core designs if possible. The speaker will play of course with iron core inductors, but you can hear them. Even 15 Ga. I.C. impart a grain like quality. Have not tried a Toroidal. If I get around to it I will report back.
R1. This resistor also influences the brightness and overall character of the midrange and treble of the system. 8 - 25 ohms seems to be a good range. As time goes on and the Vifa breaks in, 12-15 ohms seems to be the best. This assumes of course L2 is at, or very close to 2.0 Mh. I currently use 2.0 mh for L2 and 15 Ohms for R1.
Hope these observations help.
John
First time speaker builder...Manzanita hopeful...input, corrections, comments please. Working to learning about all of this, new hobby??
Manzi Crossover Parts List
3.2.12
C1 - Solen 6.2 uF 400V Polyporpylene Capacitor
R2 - Dayton Audo DNR-4.7 Ohm 10 watt
R1 - Dayton Audio DNR-8.0 8 10W
L2 - Erse 2.0mH 14AWG Perfect Layer Inductor
L1 - Erse Super Q 20mH 16 AWG 500W Inductor
Thank you!
Manzi Crossover Parts List
3.2.12
C1 - Solen 6.2 uF 400V Polyporpylene Capacitor
R2 - Dayton Audo DNR-4.7 Ohm 10 watt
R1 - Dayton Audio DNR-8.0 8 10W
L2 - Erse 2.0mH 14AWG Perfect Layer Inductor
L1 - Erse Super Q 20mH 16 AWG 500W Inductor
Thank you!
Hey John,
I like the Manzi's so much I think I'm going to build the Ultra for the garage
Did you ever look at the Fane 15-400LF as a possible driver for the Ultra? I know it's a lot more expensive that the GRS, but has a SPL of 96dB. MCM carries them...
Fane International Sovereign Series 15 Inch Prosound Woofer 400W RMS | SOVEREIGN 15-400LF (SOVEREIGN 15400LF) | Fane International
I like the Manzi's so much I think I'm going to build the Ultra for the garage
Did you ever look at the Fane 15-400LF as a possible driver for the Ultra? I know it's a lot more expensive that the GRS, but has a SPL of 96dB. MCM carries them...
Fane International Sovereign Series 15 Inch Prosound Woofer 400W RMS | SOVEREIGN 15-400LF (SOVEREIGN 15400LF) | Fane International
Manzanita stuff
mnsouthpaw.... Not sure I understand your question. Are you thinking about adding a rounded front edge to the vertical sides of the baffle face? I did experiment with that using rolled cardboard. Didn't seem to make much difference. However, I tried that during the earlier version of the Manzanita. Not with it in it's current configuration. You never know, could be worth trying out. Would suggest that if you wish to pursue, doing something simple like card board and let us know what you try and how, or if it works.
Kec
Good to hear you are happy with your Manzanita's!!!
As for your alternate Ultra woofer question...
The Fane, as you note is WAY more efficient. It would require a substantial rework of the crossover and the limited efficiency of the Vifa would not allow you to take advantage of the Fane's efficiency. There are also woofer Q issues too. If you happened to have a pair of the Fanes to play with, it would be interesting to experiment.
I must say, that if you like the Manzanita, you will like the Ultra too, maybe even better. With the GRS being so inexpensive I would recommend you build the current design and then if you feel compelled to experiment, give it a whirl!!
A side note, I have also been working on a dual GRS version of the Ultra (Ultra Squared). It does some things better, but not as well balance in the midrange as the Ultra. Still a work in progress.
mnsouthpaw.... Not sure I understand your question. Are you thinking about adding a rounded front edge to the vertical sides of the baffle face? I did experiment with that using rolled cardboard. Didn't seem to make much difference. However, I tried that during the earlier version of the Manzanita. Not with it in it's current configuration. You never know, could be worth trying out. Would suggest that if you wish to pursue, doing something simple like card board and let us know what you try and how, or if it works.
Kec
Good to hear you are happy with your Manzanita's!!!
As for your alternate Ultra woofer question...
The Fane, as you note is WAY more efficient. It would require a substantial rework of the crossover and the limited efficiency of the Vifa would not allow you to take advantage of the Fane's efficiency. There are also woofer Q issues too. If you happened to have a pair of the Fanes to play with, it would be interesting to experiment.
I must say, that if you like the Manzanita, you will like the Ultra too, maybe even better. With the GRS being so inexpensive I would recommend you build the current design and then if you feel compelled to experiment, give it a whirl!!
A side note, I have also been working on a dual GRS version of the Ultra (Ultra Squared). It does some things better, but not as well balance in the midrange as the Ultra. Still a work in progress.
Thank you John. I now have my prototypes up and running and will fool around with this before assembling the finished set.
I plan to add some styling to the look of these and don't want to degrade the acoustics. That was my reason for asking, you did assess the question correctly.
It's a shame that more people aren't exposed to better fidelity through something as simple and well designed as these speakers!
Need to do some tweaking but they sound very nice. Ran them first with an older Class A solid state amp...worked well...then hooked up the OTL's. They had no trouble with them at all.
Good stuff, will be interested in following the Ultra Square's
Other good stuff.....it's baseball season!!!!!
I plan to add some styling to the look of these and don't want to degrade the acoustics. That was my reason for asking, you did assess the question correctly.
It's a shame that more people aren't exposed to better fidelity through something as simple and well designed as these speakers!
Need to do some tweaking but they sound very nice. Ran them first with an older Class A solid state amp...worked well...then hooked up the OTL's. They had no trouble with them at all.
Good stuff, will be interested in following the Ultra Square's
Other good stuff.....it's baseball season!!!!!