After the (net) buzz from the Emerald Physic cs2 with the BMS 4540 tweeter going down to 1KHz, I started wondering if there were any alternatives that sound even better in a 12" waveguide for a 2-way design.
There aren't a lot of reviews of these pro drivers so if you've got experience with them please chime in.
There aren't a lot of reviews of these pro drivers so if you've got experience with them please chime in.
I have used both small and large format BMS drivers and have to say they really aren't my idea of high fidelity. They sound hard, brittle and fake compared to:
If you want to go to 1K try the Beyma CP380 LINK
They sound better than the big dollar TAD's to me.
Look at the Radians too - They are 'updated Emilars' (I love my Emilar 320's = 3" aluminum diaphrgm 2" exit but good luck finding a pair)
If you want to go to 1K try the Beyma CP380 LINK
They sound better than the big dollar TAD's to me.
Look at the Radians too - They are 'updated Emilars' (I love my Emilar 320's = 3" aluminum diaphrgm 2" exit but good luck finding a pair)
Lynn Olson reported about the excellent performance of a speaker using the 380 in an other thread, and we all know he is no born horn-lover. If you desire to clone the Emerald also have a look at this:
http://www.seleniumloudspeakers.com/site2004/catalogo/pdf/wooferpw3_15pw3_15pw3-slf_new.pdf
It has a performance around 1kHz (especially off-axis) any Eminence can only dream about.
http://www.seleniumloudspeakers.com/site2004/catalogo/pdf/wooferpw3_15pw3_15pw3-slf_new.pdf
It has a performance around 1kHz (especially off-axis) any Eminence can only dream about.
Ang, when I see the pictures of the backside of the Emerald Physiscs they are defenatly not using BMS drivers, don't know what they are using because a lot of compression drivers look about the same, the BMS drivers look different though.
Magnetar,
The BMS drivers right out of the box with some kind of crossover sound very terrible indeed. First I have tried them on some 18sound waveguides and it was plain terrible, some very cheap 18sound drivers I hade sounded much better on them. Same story went with some other cheap waveguides, all very nasty, while o.k. with my other drivers. After that I had some custom waveguides made by Martin Goedeke and this finally started to sound very decent. the bms do need some special attention and they sure need some mods on themselves as well. After doing so they sounded very clear, open, detailed etc. When I just got them I was very dissapointed and couldn't even believe taht someone would produce such crap in the first place. Now they sound better then my JBL's and B&C's
cph2000,
there's been a lot of discusiion before on using compression drivers vs. domes in waveguides. The first thing you have to understand is how the waveguide actually works and the look at the difference in radiation patteren at the exit of a compression driver vs a dome tweeter and there's no doubt left that a compression driver would work much better in this application. Besides, a lot of compression drivers offer much more value for money then there hifi counterparts anyway.
Magnetar,
The BMS drivers right out of the box with some kind of crossover sound very terrible indeed. First I have tried them on some 18sound waveguides and it was plain terrible, some very cheap 18sound drivers I hade sounded much better on them. Same story went with some other cheap waveguides, all very nasty, while o.k. with my other drivers. After that I had some custom waveguides made by Martin Goedeke and this finally started to sound very decent. the bms do need some special attention and they sure need some mods on themselves as well. After doing so they sounded very clear, open, detailed etc. When I just got them I was very dissapointed and couldn't even believe taht someone would produce such crap in the first place. Now they sound better then my JBL's and B&C's
cph2000,
there's been a lot of discusiion before on using compression drivers vs. domes in waveguides. The first thing you have to understand is how the waveguide actually works and the look at the difference in radiation patteren at the exit of a compression driver vs a dome tweeter and there's no doubt left that a compression driver would work much better in this application. Besides, a lot of compression drivers offer much more value for money then there hifi counterparts anyway.
Remember, I was sugesting the use of a waveguide with a normal dome. I could never live with a true horn tweeter in my hifi system, but that is a matter of taste I guess - in any case the distortion figures of the beyma driver look pretty high to me, even with the horn. Zaphs distortion numbers on the dome horn conversion test looks a lot better, about 30dB for 2nd harmonic (knowing it is hard to compare two distortion meassurements when not done in the same setup)
Lynn made some positive comments on what he heard in my room, so my system might be the one el 'Ol is referring to. Unfortunately I mis-spoke to Lynn and several others which Beyma compression driver I was using in the speakers I showed at RMAF.
The compression driver I use is the Beyma CP385/Nd, not the CP380. I also do a modification to the CP395/Nd.
Sorry 'bout giving out the wrong model number like that. I didn't reject the CP380; just never tried it. I think they use the same diaphragm and voice coil but the CP385 has a slightly more powerful neodymium magnet. Unfortunately, it is also north of the Ang's $200 ceiling.
The CP385/Nd is down 3 dB at 17.5 kHz in my application; the published curve makes it look like it barely squeaks up to 13 kHz. I suspect this driver gets overlooked by a lot of people because of that curve. I wonder if maybe they screwed up and published the wrong curve or something.
Cph2000, might I suggest that sometimes there are exceptions to the rules, and that in audio it is often those exceptions that are the most interesting. I presume you don't like the edginess that characterizes most prosound horns, but that is caused by distortions that can be addressed.
Duke
The compression driver I use is the Beyma CP385/Nd, not the CP380. I also do a modification to the CP395/Nd.
Sorry 'bout giving out the wrong model number like that. I didn't reject the CP380; just never tried it. I think they use the same diaphragm and voice coil but the CP385 has a slightly more powerful neodymium magnet. Unfortunately, it is also north of the Ang's $200 ceiling.
The CP385/Nd is down 3 dB at 17.5 kHz in my application; the published curve makes it look like it barely squeaks up to 13 kHz. I suspect this driver gets overlooked by a lot of people because of that curve. I wonder if maybe they screwed up and published the wrong curve or something.
Cph2000, might I suggest that sometimes there are exceptions to the rules, and that in audio it is often those exceptions that are the most interesting. I presume you don't like the edginess that characterizes most prosound horns, but that is caused by distortions that can be addressed.
Duke
3db down at 17,5 kHz is nothing I should ever worry about. I have heard many system that don't go higher then 15kHz sounding much better then a lot of the "these go up to 100kHz" systems.
I don't have any experience with the Beyma drivers but they seem very nice. I only know the little cp21 wich is quite good as super tweeter, real ribbon like quality, despite what the measurement tells you.
The BMS diaprhagms are on an intergrated part with the phase plug. This pase plug is made of hollow plastic. when you tap your finger on the bak of the drivers there is some nasty plastic resonant sound coming out of the waveguide/horn in front. I just ripped of the bms logo and fille the hollow phase plug with two-component glue and let it harden out. After that I glued a piece small piece of plastic compound damping material on the back. Don't know the name of the material, it's an industrial machine damping material.
when I tap my nail on the back now there's is a very quiet, short, dry tick coming out of the waveguides and the detail, lushness of the driver is vastly improved. very simple but very effective. without this there's sometimes a earbleeding shout of the drivers.
I don't have any experience with the Beyma drivers but they seem very nice. I only know the little cp21 wich is quite good as super tweeter, real ribbon like quality, despite what the measurement tells you.
The BMS diaprhagms are on an intergrated part with the phase plug. This pase plug is made of hollow plastic. when you tap your finger on the bak of the drivers there is some nasty plastic resonant sound coming out of the waveguide/horn in front. I just ripped of the bms logo and fille the hollow phase plug with two-component glue and let it harden out. After that I glued a piece small piece of plastic compound damping material on the back. Don't know the name of the material, it's an industrial machine damping material.
when I tap my nail on the back now there's is a very quiet, short, dry tick coming out of the waveguides and the detail, lushness of the driver is vastly improved. very simple but very effective. without this there's sometimes a earbleeding shout of the drivers.
cph2000 said:
Sure it's going to look better- they were made 20 dB quieter! If you compare the distortion of a dome and compression driver at 85-100 dB (1m) unless the compression driver is a complete POS it will slaughter the dome. Also note that even at 110 dB, where the dome will not play, the distortion of the CP380M is practically negligible and predominantly 2nd order.
el 'Ol,
Duke uses the DDS waveguide.
The speaker that Emerald Physics showed at RMAF 2006 and the one they showed at T.H.E. Show Las Vegas 2007 both used the DDS waveguide.
The much less expensive CS2 speaker that Emerald Physics recently showed at RMAF 2007 didn't use the DDS waveguide. At a glance it looked similar to the 12" diameter screw-on waveguide sold by Parts Express, but I didn't look at it close enough to tell for sure.
The DDS waveguide will probably be available from US Speakers pretty soon, if it isn't already. DDS is back in production, the factory having moved from Seattle to somewhere in Texas so that it can be run by its new owners, SoundBridge prosound speaker company.
I don't know if DDS will have European distribution, but you can e-mail them and ask.
http://www.ddshorns.com/content.php?page=home
Here is the Parts Express 12" waveguide. I don't think it's quite a constant-directivity device, as the wall of the horn has some curvature to it - but not very much:
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=270-312
This device is much larger than the DDS waveguide and so undoubtedly maintains pattern control to a much lower frequency. Much of the diameter of the DDS waveguide is actually a large-radius lip, which minimizes mouth reflections (imho a good idea).
Duke uses the DDS waveguide.
The speaker that Emerald Physics showed at RMAF 2006 and the one they showed at T.H.E. Show Las Vegas 2007 both used the DDS waveguide.
The much less expensive CS2 speaker that Emerald Physics recently showed at RMAF 2007 didn't use the DDS waveguide. At a glance it looked similar to the 12" diameter screw-on waveguide sold by Parts Express, but I didn't look at it close enough to tell for sure.
The DDS waveguide will probably be available from US Speakers pretty soon, if it isn't already. DDS is back in production, the factory having moved from Seattle to somewhere in Texas so that it can be run by its new owners, SoundBridge prosound speaker company.
I don't know if DDS will have European distribution, but you can e-mail them and ask.
http://www.ddshorns.com/content.php?page=home
Here is the Parts Express 12" waveguide. I don't think it's quite a constant-directivity device, as the wall of the horn has some curvature to it - but not very much:
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=270-312
This device is much larger than the DDS waveguide and so undoubtedly maintains pattern control to a much lower frequency. Much of the diameter of the DDS waveguide is actually a large-radius lip, which minimizes mouth reflections (imho a good idea).
Thanks!
A guy at audioasylum one recommended the use from 1.3kHz up. It would be very kind if you could explain this polar response graph to me:
http://www.ddshorns.com/catalog.php?page=ENG190Pro
How much loss at 90° (1.3kHz) in dB do I have compared to on axis?
A guy at audioasylum one recommended the use from 1.3kHz up. It would be very kind if you could explain this polar response graph to me:
http://www.ddshorns.com/catalog.php?page=ENG190Pro
How much loss at 90° (1.3kHz) in dB do I have compared to on axis?
Comp. drv.
Pardon me for interrupting with a slight off topic question.
Do any of you know of a good inexpensive compression tweeter with a LOW sensitivity? I am talking 92-93 db sensitivity crossed at 5-6000 hz.
The reason I ask is that I don't really want to pad with resistors if I can avoid it. I use the Hemp Acoustics 6.5 wide range driver.
Thanks
Kris
Pardon me for interrupting with a slight off topic question.
Do any of you know of a good inexpensive compression tweeter with a LOW sensitivity? I am talking 92-93 db sensitivity crossed at 5-6000 hz.
The reason I ask is that I don't really want to pad with resistors if I can avoid it. I use the Hemp Acoustics 6.5 wide range driver.
Thanks
Kris
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