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Old 19th October 2007, 11:31 PM   #21
tinitus is offline tinitus  Europe
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18Sound drivers ? sounds like you mean instead of the ATC ???

BMS 4591 2" mid CD and 2" RADIAN 850PB are cheaper too but maybe not with the needed waveguide

Bare in mind that Shin have found that the Raal ribbon sound better crossed "high" with 12db ... as most ribbons probably will

man, I better rest now
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Old 19th October 2007, 11:50 PM   #22
obiwan is offline obiwan  Australia
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"Bare in mind that Shin have found that the Raal ribbon sound better crossed "high" with 12db ... as most ribbons probably will"

Does that apply to the Raven 3.2MMX? They say to cross at 800Hz.
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Old 19th October 2007, 11:58 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by tinitus
Bare in mind that Shin have found that the Raal ribbon sound better crossed "high" with 12db ... as most ribbons probably will

man, I better rest now
Yes, despite RAAL stating 1.5Khz using 4th order is no problem at high SPL I really dislike the sound of a tweeter working there. It doesn't have the right weight, body and energy to give natural tonality and dynamics. I tried 1.5Khz with steep slopes and it was thin, unnatural and just unpleasant to listen to. It did have the virtue of being hyper detailed but that counts for little when you can't enjoy it.

As you've said I settled on 2.5Khz with 2nd order acoustic slopes and its an altogether more rewarding sound.

Since he's crossing to the ATC mid then 2.5-3Khz will be the sweet spot here anyway. I wouldn't recommend 2nd order on the ATC even at 2.5Khz because of the breakup at 4.4Khz. If this isn't properly addressed it can lend a bit of a hard edge to the treble that's fatiguing.
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Old 20th October 2007, 12:04 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by obiwan
"Bare in mind that Shin have found that the Raal ribbon sound better crossed "high" with 12db ... as most ribbons probably will"

Does that apply to the Raven 3.2MMX? They say to cross at 800Hz.
I've seen designs using the Raven down to 600hz. Its got more radiating area than the RAAL 140-15d (21cm2 compared to 28cm2) but I've mentioned above that the RAAL unbalances the sound when crossed low down. I'd imagine things to be potentially worse with Raven at 800hz.

Some like that thin and hyper detailed sound but its just wearing and unnatural for me. All the commercial Accuton based designs I've heard are another offender here.
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Old 20th October 2007, 04:34 AM   #25
el`Ol is offline el`Ol  Germany
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Quote:
Originally posted by tinitus
There is a certain myth around the ATC mid, but to be honest it dont impress me THAT much ... BUT the possibility of 95db sensitivity makes it an interesting candidate

I heard the ATC and found something is missing. Sounded somehow abstract for me. If there was a good 4" paper cone with Fs 200Hz...
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Old 20th October 2007, 07:55 AM   #26
tinitus is offline tinitus  Europe
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4" with Fs=200hz ?? this is very close

http://www.bmspro.info/index.php?sho...10281&id=54367
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Old 21st October 2007, 03:41 AM   #27
thadman is offline thadman  United States
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Quote:
Originally posted by ShinOBIWAN


Yes, despite RAAL stating 1.5Khz using 4th order is no problem at high SPL I really dislike the sound of a tweeter working there. It doesn't have the right weight, body and energy to give natural tonality and dynamics. I tried 1.5Khz with steep slopes and it was thin, unnatural and just unpleasant to listen to. It did have the virtue of being hyper detailed but that counts for little when you can't enjoy it.
Do you have a hypothesis regarding its behavior down low? Is it because of an excess amount of odd order distortion maybe giving the sensation of extra detail? Or something altogether? I'm not criticizing your subjective analysis, as its hard to decipher any subjective interpretation...just trying to come to a scientific conclusion regarding your experience.
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Old 21st October 2007, 06:34 AM   #28
el`Ol is offline el`Ol  Germany
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Quote:
Originally posted by ShinOBIWAN

I really dislike the sound of a tweeter working there.
I wonder how this sounds:
A plasma tweeter crossed at 1.5kHz!!!
http://www.ib-lansche.de/
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Old 21st October 2007, 05:10 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by thadman


Do you have a hypothesis regarding its behavior down low? Is it because of an excess amount of odd order distortion maybe giving the sensation of extra detail? Or something altogether? I'm not criticizing your subjective analysis, as its hard to decipher any subjective interpretation...just trying to come to a scientific conclusion regarding your experience.
There's definitely going to be some distortion when using a ribbon that low. They're just not much good below 2Khz, even the RAAL. I guess a deal depends on how loud you listen and what slopes you use.

But I also think a lot has to do with the cone size, mass and material. Producing upper midrange/lower treble with a tweeter just sounds devoid and thin. This is regardless of distortion and irrespective of tweeter type and of course this is my opinion and preference.
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Old 21st October 2007, 05:42 PM   #30
thadman is offline thadman  United States
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Whats the acoustic signatures of those ATC midwoofers similar too? Over on Solen they cost between $600-900 each, very unreasonable. I'm trying to do a no-compromise design...not sell my kidneys ahah.

Are they similar to paper cone pro midwoofers? The 18Sound 12NdA520 has a 100dB efficiency, handles tons of power, has excellent build quality, and super low distortion (uses active impedance control). It also only costs ~$250 per driver, much less than the ATC.
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