18Sound drivers ? sounds like you mean instead of the ATC ???
BMS 4591 2" mid CD and 2" RADIAN 850PB are cheaper too
but maybe not with the needed waveguide
Bare in mind that Shin have found that the Raal ribbon sound better crossed "high" with 12db ... as most ribbons probably will
man, I better rest now
BMS 4591 2" mid CD and 2" RADIAN 850PB are cheaper too
but maybe not with the needed waveguideBare in mind that Shin have found that the Raal ribbon sound better crossed "high" with 12db ... as most ribbons probably will
man, I better rest now
tinitus said:Bare in mind that Shin have found that the Raal ribbon sound better crossed "high" with 12db ... as most ribbons probably will
man, I better rest now
Yes, despite RAAL stating 1.5Khz using 4th order is no problem at high SPL I really dislike the sound of a tweeter working there. It doesn't have the right weight, body and energy to give natural tonality and dynamics. I tried 1.5Khz with steep slopes and it was thin, unnatural and just unpleasant to listen to. It did have the virtue of being hyper detailed but that counts for little when you can't enjoy it.
As you've said I settled on 2.5Khz with 2nd order acoustic slopes and its an altogether more rewarding sound.
Since he's crossing to the ATC mid then 2.5-3Khz will be the sweet spot here anyway. I wouldn't recommend 2nd order on the ATC even at 2.5Khz because of the breakup at 4.4Khz. If this isn't properly addressed it can lend a bit of a hard edge to the treble that's fatiguing.
obiwan said:
I've seen designs using the Raven down to 600hz. Its got more radiating area than the RAAL 140-15d (21cm2 compared to 28cm2) but I've mentioned above that the RAAL unbalances the sound when crossed low down. I'd imagine things to be potentially worse with Raven at 800hz.
Some like that thin and hyper detailed sound but its just wearing and unnatural for me. All the commercial Accuton based designs I've heard are another offender here.
4" with Fs=200hz ?? this is very close
http://www.bmspro.info/index.php?show=item&usbid=10281&id=54367
http://www.bmspro.info/index.php?show=item&usbid=10281&id=54367
ShinOBIWAN said:
Do you have a hypothesis regarding its behavior down low? Is it because of an excess amount of odd order distortion maybe giving the sensation of extra detail? Or something altogether? I'm not criticizing your subjective analysis, as its hard to decipher any subjective interpretation...just trying to come to a scientific conclusion regarding your experience.
ShinOBIWAN said:
I wonder how this sounds:
A plasma tweeter crossed at 1.5kHz!!!
http://www.ib-lansche.de/
thadman said:
There's definitely going to be some distortion when using a ribbon that low. They're just not much good below 2Khz, even the RAAL. I guess a deal depends on how loud you listen and what slopes you use.
But I also think a lot has to do with the cone size, mass and material. Producing upper midrange/lower treble with a tweeter just sounds devoid and thin. This is regardless of distortion and irrespective of tweeter type and of course this is my opinion and preference.
Whats the acoustic signatures of those ATC midwoofers similar too? Over on Solen they cost between $600-900 each, very unreasonable. I'm trying to do a no-compromise design...not sell my kidneys ahah.
Are they similar to paper cone pro midwoofers? The 18Sound 12NdA520 has a 100dB efficiency, handles tons of power, has excellent build quality, and super low distortion (uses active impedance control). It also only costs ~$250 per driver, much less than the ATC.
Are they similar to paper cone pro midwoofers? The 18Sound 12NdA520 has a 100dB efficiency, handles tons of power, has excellent build quality, and super low distortion (uses active impedance control). It also only costs ~$250 per driver, much less than the ATC.
Yes, the ATC pricing is expensive but that's the only downside for me. Even in the UK they're £380 each so not a bad deal from Solen 
Character is a near perfect mid. Does nothing wrong once properly implemented. Dynamic, low distortion, extreme SPL and natural are all good descriptors.
I use AT 5" mids which are well regarded and do sound well. Still not the equal of the ATC's IMO. Wish I had the dough to fork out for 4 of them but even considering the excellent performance, that's a real push for any DIY'er.
Can't help with the comparisons. I've used only a few pro drivers and even fewer pro mids.
Character is a near perfect mid. Does nothing wrong once properly implemented. Dynamic, low distortion, extreme SPL and natural are all good descriptors.
I use AT 5" mids which are well regarded and do sound well. Still not the equal of the ATC's IMO. Wish I had the dough to fork out for 4 of them but even considering the excellent performance, that's a real push for any DIY'er.
Can't help with the comparisons. I've used only a few pro drivers and even fewer pro mids.
The ATC is not a PA mid. It is also not a hifi mid. It is very, very accurate and revealing, much more so than any alternative. A lot of the hifi crowd will hate it, because it doesn't sound nice or make recordings sound good, and it's too expensive for the PA crowd.
It's not a driver for everyone, and I have no problem with that, taste is important as well as technical performance, but for those that like what it does, it sticks in the memory as a comparison that all other mids have to be held up to, and in my experience, fail to do so.
It's not a driver for everyone, and I have no problem with that, taste is important as well as technical performance, but for those that like what it does, it sticks in the memory as a comparison that all other mids have to be held up to, and in my experience, fail to do so.
thadman said:
They can handle a good bit of power for a 3" dome. I'd suggest 50w minimum but 200w is ideal.
I'd go with the 12 or 15" given the lack of baffle width issue. This would work perfectly well upto 500hz where I'd recommend crossing the mid. Since its only working to 100hz you can look towards high sensitivity drivers. Keep the baffle wide and you could avoid BSC in the mid altogether and do it on that high sensitivity mid/bass. I know you said active but it also serves to lower distortion on the mid.
ShinOBIWAN said:
As far as power handling, I was referring to the midwoofers. Is it worth it to get the 4" VC over the 3" VC ($200 price difference). Whats the difference between the SB75-375SC, SB75-375LC, and SB100-375S (4" VC probably, but what else)?
Also, I posted in your ATC midrange measurements thread concerning your test conditions and didn't get a reply (topic has gone way way off topic). How wide was your test baffle? Did you equalize the midrange flat (ie BSC)? Without the need for BSC could I push the distortion increase down to 400hz vs 600hz?
thadman said:
Difference is voice coil topology. SC stands for short coil or underhung motor and the LC is long coil or overhung. Traditionally underhung is more linear than overhung. 3" vs. 4" VC is mainly down to long term power handling rather than better distortion figures etc.
Any data I posted in that thread was just the raw driver(no correction, no crossover) in the cabinet. Baffle width is difficult to judge because it was irregular and had facets cut into it similar to the LGT project I've posted elsewhere on the forums. As an average I'd say 25-30cm though.
Just want to comment that I have heard the big active ATC Aniversary with 12" woofer and must say that its quite nice sounding, warm and musical, somewhat forgiving ... ofcourse its all a design issue ... but to be honest I didnt expect that from an active speaker
Also I have heard the bigger 3way ProAc with double ATCs ... the ONLY thing I liked was the dynamics at loud level ... much more pronounced than on ATCs own 3way design ... I guess its partly due to double mids and maybe because they were driven by a MarkLevinson
But to be honest I believe my own modest 3way with SS drivers do most of it just as good, and some minor things even better ... maybe mostly a matter of different taste
Also I have heard the bigger 3way ProAc with double ATCs ... the ONLY thing I liked was the dynamics at loud level ... much more pronounced than on ATCs own 3way design ... I guess its partly due to double mids and maybe because they were driven by a MarkLevinson
But to be honest I believe my own modest 3way with SS drivers do most of it just as good, and some minor things even better ... maybe mostly a matter of different taste
I guess I only prefer passive, because I understand that better than active ... but now I dont doubt that ATCs active technology is special and not just some ordinary standard filter
I know you guys have other skills with computers and such ... I can only envy that ... no doubt its the future coming ... personally I must stick to the art of passive, but in a few years it may be hard and expencive to find good passive components ... a dying art
I know you guys have other skills with computers and such ... I can only envy that ... no doubt its the future coming ... personally I must stick to the art of passive, but in a few years it may be hard and expencive to find good passive components ... a dying art
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