Just a short advice: I was building a pair of dipole loudspeakers, and I thinked to stop the panel resonances applying a foil of lead to the wood (1,5 mm thick).
As far as I start to work with, I noted a strange metallic flavour in my mouth, even if I worked with gas mask and gloves.
As far as I proceeded with my work, every time I had to make a hole, a drill, a cut, I started to note other kind of affections: irritated eyes and mouth and so on.
I thinked (wrongly) that puttting the lead inside a strong layer of epoxy glue was enough to avoid intoxication problems.
4 days ago I went to the decision to trash everything, now a couple of photo is all that remains to me:
(see attached files)
Make a favour to yourself: NEVER use lead to build something, there are so many non-toxic material to use (takeng into account that the sonic result was't so wonderful at all...).
About me, I'm happy to restart from the beginning, for the health of mine and mine beloved wife and friends.
Hope this will help someoone
edited: it seems I can't manage to insert an image to my message, please refer to the attached file, if someone interested I'll try to post more lately
As far as I start to work with, I noted a strange metallic flavour in my mouth, even if I worked with gas mask and gloves.
As far as I proceeded with my work, every time I had to make a hole, a drill, a cut, I started to note other kind of affections: irritated eyes and mouth and so on.
I thinked (wrongly) that puttting the lead inside a strong layer of epoxy glue was enough to avoid intoxication problems.
4 days ago I went to the decision to trash everything, now a couple of photo is all that remains to me:
(see attached files)
Make a favour to yourself: NEVER use lead to build something, there are so many non-toxic material to use (takeng into account that the sonic result was't so wonderful at all...).
About me, I'm happy to restart from the beginning, for the health of mine and mine beloved wife and friends.
Hope this will help someoone
edited: it seems I can't manage to insert an image to my message, please refer to the attached file, if someone interested I'll try to post more lately
Attachments
lead
I've worked with hundreds of pounds of lead, (chrome plating anodes, etc.) with no adverse health effects (other than this abnormal craving to keep building speakers
)
Seriously, unless you were ingesting the fines from drilling/cutting/machining it's hard to imagine how one could become contaminated with the metal. Many marksmen in the US "load their own" shells with lead shot from the melt. If fumes were a serious problem, seems someone would notice. All of the public rancour about "lead" is either unfounded or the result of poor hygeine practices by people without adequate handling skills.
John L.
I've worked with hundreds of pounds of lead, (chrome plating anodes, etc.) with no adverse health effects (other than this abnormal craving to keep building speakers
)Seriously, unless you were ingesting the fines from drilling/cutting/machining it's hard to imagine how one could become contaminated with the metal. Many marksmen in the US "load their own" shells with lead shot from the melt. If fumes were a serious problem, seems someone would notice. All of the public rancour about "lead" is either unfounded or the result of poor hygeine practices by people without adequate handling skills.
John L.
thanks a lot for the replay, Cal and John, from what you say it seems that probably I'm just too sensible to this material. Every time that I machined it (I never heated it, so I think I haven't breathe vapours) the dust irritate me a lot, and the same effect was given to me just touching it. As far from I trashed it the disturbs to mouth and eyes was stopped.
In electronics new world standard tends to avoid the use of the lead, both in components and in soldering metal mixture, so one can think that lead can be dangerous, but... we all know how many times an argument can be propagated just for business... )
Regarding my experience, I'll never user lead again, but, I repeat, probably it is a problem of mine. Maybe there can be a sort of test that one can do before manage this metal, I don't know...
Anyway, thanks again for the replay, they are both reassuring, in some way...
In any case, you're right John, probably the most serious health problem is this craving to keep building audio stuff, but I don't think that there can be a cure for this... )
a great salute
Massimo B.
In electronics new world standard tends to avoid the use of the lead, both in components and in soldering metal mixture, so one can think that lead can be dangerous, but... we all know how many times an argument can be propagated just for business...
)Regarding my experience, I'll never user lead again, but, I repeat, probably it is a problem of mine. Maybe there can be a sort of test that one can do before manage this metal, I don't know...
Anyway, thanks again for the replay, they are both reassuring, in some way...
In any case, you're right John, probably the most serious health problem is this craving to keep building audio stuff, but I don't think that there can be a cure for this...
)a great salute
Massimo B.
Re: lead
Well, do friends think you're slightly wacky? I don't mean certifiable, just marginally so one would hardly notice. I find that many of my friends in the electronics industry are just that bit more "fun". I think it's the lead...
auplater said:I've worked with hundreds of pounds of lead, (chrome plating anodes, etc.) with no adverse health effects (other than this abnormal craving to keep building speakers
Well, do friends think you're slightly wacky? I don't mean certifiable, just marginally so one would hardly notice. I find that many of my friends in the electronics industry are just that bit more "fun". I think it's the lead...
Auplater: OK so It didn't kill you yet, but do you positively know that your blood doesn't contain elevated lead-levels?
To my understanding the "funny" thing about lead (and a lot of the others stuff that gets under your skin, - in the not so pleasant way...), is that most people can play around with the stuff for years without any harm.
THAT DOSNT MAKE IT SAFE!
When lead is well documented as being bad you should choose your words with more wisdom. OK so you are still alive, but that doesn't prove anything...
Some smokers are still alive, but that doesn't make smoking safe...
Link: http://www.nsc.org/library/facts/lead.htm
Google for more....
If I got it all wrong please do correct me.
Regards TroelsM
To my understanding the "funny" thing about lead (and a lot of the others stuff that gets under your skin, - in the not so pleasant way...), is that most people can play around with the stuff for years without any harm.
THAT DOSNT MAKE IT SAFE!
When lead is well documented as being bad you should choose your words with more wisdom. OK so you are still alive, but that doesn't prove anything...
Some smokers are still alive, but that doesn't make smoking safe...
Link: http://www.nsc.org/library/facts/lead.htm
Google for more....
If I got it all wrong please do correct me.
Regards TroelsM
lead safety
I stated that when mishandled, lead creates problems, so I'm not sure what your problem is... and your understanding is not very deep
There are very few things in life that are truly "safe" if mishandled. Lead is no different. The housing article you referenced is a classic example of overreactive government intrusion. We all drive cars with CO spewing out the tailpipe. That's highly toxic as well, but we're not all dying of carboxyhemoglobinemia. Trees emit all sorts of VOC as a natural consequence of their existence, yet we haven't banned trees, or created regulations banning their use. So we make choices daily that may or may not be harmful.
I currently run a pediatric medical practice, have worked for many years with EPA, have been environmental safety officer in mega-corporations, etc., so I have expertise in this field.
Too many politicians who don't have a clue about REAL safety issues in the world are misleading those naive enough to think they're being protected with psuedoscience and drivel pronouncements and policies that are at odds with reality...
And no, I don't have elevated lead levels, in spite of handling the stuff daily.
(now climbing down off of my stump)
TroelsM said:
I stated that when mishandled, lead creates problems, so I'm not sure what your problem is... and your understanding is not very deep
There are very few things in life that are truly "safe" if mishandled. Lead is no different. The housing article you referenced is a classic example of overreactive government intrusion. We all drive cars with CO spewing out the tailpipe. That's highly toxic as well, but we're not all dying of carboxyhemoglobinemia. Trees emit all sorts of VOC as a natural consequence of their existence, yet we haven't banned trees, or created regulations banning their use. So we make choices daily that may or may not be harmful.
I currently run a pediatric medical practice, have worked for many years with EPA, have been environmental safety officer in mega-corporations, etc., so I have expertise in this field.
Too many politicians who don't have a clue about REAL safety issues in the world are misleading those naive enough to think they're being protected with psuedoscience and drivel pronouncements and policies that are at odds with reality...
And no, I don't have elevated lead levels, in spite of handling the stuff daily.
(now climbing down off of my stump)
Thank you Charles for the advice, but no, it wasn't the glue (it's the one used to pose wood tiles), I start to feel this disturbs when I work with lead, before I used glue.
Sincerely I don't expected to have so many partecipation in this thread, my intention was only to tell to all passionate diyers that there are more reasonable choices to the lead (expecially new bituminous- plymeric materials).
Just consider that the sonic result wasn't as good as expected, panel resonance goes deep down, but was present and longer to fall down, and the sound was something deadly.
I hope that the tone will remain calm, maybe it's a delicate argument, I don't know, but please don't let this make this thread a place for a rough debatement, just remember that we share the same passion...
I felt the need to tell this story primarily because I was one step near to the finished work, and I thrashed everything. Maybe it was only to have some partecipation and support to my adventure...
Anyone have its own idea on what is dangerous and what is not, but sometime I'm afraid that our passion can be harmful for other beloved person: in the presence of doubt about the lead, I try to think if I'll shoud live with the thought of my son (or any other children) playing near my leaded loudspeakers... to thrash all was for me the only solution.
Thank you again Charles for your interest,
a great salute to all,
Max
Sincerely I don't expected to have so many partecipation in this thread, my intention was only to tell to all passionate diyers that there are more reasonable choices to the lead (expecially new bituminous- plymeric materials).
Just consider that the sonic result wasn't as good as expected, panel resonance goes deep down, but was present and longer to fall down, and the sound was something deadly.
I hope that the tone will remain calm, maybe it's a delicate argument, I don't know, but please don't let this make this thread a place for a rough debatement, just remember that we share the same passion...
I felt the need to tell this story primarily because I was one step near to the finished work, and I thrashed everything. Maybe it was only to have some partecipation and support to my adventure...
Anyone have its own idea on what is dangerous and what is not, but sometime I'm afraid that our passion can be harmful for other beloved person: in the presence of doubt about the lead, I try to think if I'll shoud live with the thought of my son (or any other children) playing near my leaded loudspeakers... to thrash all was for me the only solution.
Thank you again Charles for your interest,
a great salute to all,
Max
Attachments
Dipoles
I built a couple of similar OB's, similar to the "NoBox" style
These sound pretty good down to ~ 40 Hz or so... have them augmented with a sonotube 12" sub
John L.
BTW: Metal sensitivity is a well known hazrd... I've had to deal with several cases of nickel rashes, cadmium reactions, etc. over the decades I was in the metal finishing industry, so you may well be allergic to lead, etc.
I built a couple of similar OB's, similar to the "NoBox" style
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
These sound pretty good down to ~ 40 Hz or so... have them augmented with a sonotube 12" sub
John L.
BTW: Metal sensitivity is a well known hazrd... I've had to deal with several cases of nickel rashes, cadmium reactions, etc. over the decades I was in the metal finishing industry, so you may well be allergic to lead, etc.
One type of mass- and friction- damping that is not poisonous is made by a Swiss company.
The product is called Hawaphon. It is made from some plastic thingie with protrusions that are each filled to 3/4 with small steel-balls of different sizes. It is glued to the panel whose resonance has to be tamed. The German speaker manufacturer Duevel uses it for sandwich walls (i.e. laminated on both sides with some kind of wood).
The only danger is that these balls may be leaking into voice-coil gaps if one is not paying enough attention when cutting it up or not carefully cleaning-off any leaked balls after drilling/sawing.
http://www.german-physiks.com/images/stories/whitebook/Hawaphon_with_coin0001_gr.gif
Regards
Charles
The product is called Hawaphon. It is made from some plastic thingie with protrusions that are each filled to 3/4 with small steel-balls of different sizes. It is glued to the panel whose resonance has to be tamed. The German speaker manufacturer Duevel uses it for sandwich walls (i.e. laminated on both sides with some kind of wood).
The only danger is that these balls may be leaking into voice-coil gaps if one is not paying enough attention when cutting it up or not carefully cleaning-off any leaked balls after drilling/sawing.
http://www.german-physiks.com/images/stories/whitebook/Hawaphon_with_coin0001_gr.gif
Regards
Charles
German-Physics... what a dream!! But the witch-hat speaker (to say it in Ohm-Walsh way) is another project that I'm planning to start. I already bought both kevlar and carbon sheets, and it seems to me that the cone used to warn in the street's work in progress are perfect as a mask to build the diaphragm...
But this probably will be another thread in the future...
Very interesting Charles the way you explained, I'm just little scared by the 22.000 Gauss flux of my Lowther DX3... they FINDS practically everything is magnetic
As far as my experience suggest to me, I find that for now the sand is the best material (giving an eye to the cost, too) to stop resonances. Probably I'll plain to build my speakers with a sort of multi-layered wood, with cavity to be filled with sand, but before I must decide the right measurement.
I'm just boring Rudolf to ask him about his experience with w-dipole.
The problem is that I already have a dipole speakers, where I fitted two Dynaudio 24W75, and they are insuffucient to place my new speakers, two JBL 123a-3 each channel.
As you can imagine from the second attached image, I already listened to the new dipole, but it seems to me that I've missed the "voice" of my old speakers (something robust and credible in the 400 - 700 Hz region, really musical, that make possible to listen to a realistic piano).
Probably there must be something related to the dimension of the front panel, I must investigate further.
A great salute
But this probably will be another thread in the future...
Very interesting Charles the way you explained, I'm just little scared by the 22.000 Gauss flux of my Lowther DX3... they FINDS practically everything is magnetic
As far as my experience suggest to me, I find that for now the sand is the best material (giving an eye to the cost, too) to stop resonances. Probably I'll plain to build my speakers with a sort of multi-layered wood, with cavity to be filled with sand, but before I must decide the right measurement.
I'm just boring Rudolf to ask him about his experience with w-dipole.
The problem is that I already have a dipole speakers, where I fitted two Dynaudio 24W75, and they are insuffucient to place my new speakers, two JBL 123a-3 each channel.
As you can imagine from the second attached image, I already listened to the new dipole, but it seems to me that I've missed the "voice" of my old speakers (something robust and credible in the 400 - 700 Hz region, really musical, that make possible to listen to a realistic piano).
Probably there must be something related to the dimension of the front panel, I must investigate further.
A great salute
Re: lead safety
Yes, the lead paint problem wasn't due to 'contact' it was 'ingestion'. But using the term contact is more suggestive and creates greater public concern. No one is worried about the lead paint on their house if you tell them that kids are dying because they eat chipped paint. But if you change the word 'eat' to contact...
I know this is going to sound harsh but George Carlin is right. This sort of over-reacting that the government does is leading to the pussification of mankind. George asked, "Why are we concerned with saving the lives of a kid who'd eat paint chips, or think amonia cleaner is a beverage...and we wonder why the up and coming generations are so f*cked up? We've interfered with natural selection...children who would have otherwise eaten lead paint or drank Mr Clean 20-25 years ago have gone on to breed, and we're shocked when they turn out to be such terrible parents...of course they can't raise children, of course they're terrible underachievers...someone had to tell them not to eat urinal cakes and moth balls."
auplater said:
Yes, the lead paint problem wasn't due to 'contact' it was 'ingestion'. But using the term contact is more suggestive and creates greater public concern. No one is worried about the lead paint on their house if you tell them that kids are dying because they eat chipped paint. But if you change the word 'eat' to contact...
I know this is going to sound harsh but George Carlin is right. This sort of over-reacting that the government does is leading to the pussification of mankind. George asked, "Why are we concerned with saving the lives of a kid who'd eat paint chips, or think amonia cleaner is a beverage...and we wonder why the up and coming generations are so f*cked up? We've interfered with natural selection...children who would have otherwise eaten lead paint or drank Mr Clean 20-25 years ago have gone on to breed, and we're shocked when they turn out to be such terrible parents...of course they can't raise children, of course they're terrible underachievers...someone had to tell them not to eat urinal cakes and moth balls."
QUOTE:There are very few things in life that are truly "safe" if mishandled. Lead is no different. The housing article you referenced is a classic example of overreactive government intrusion. We all drive cars with CO spewing out the tailpipe. That's highly toxic as well, but we're not all dying of carboxyhemoglobinemia. Trees emit all sorts of VOC as a natural consequence of their existence, yet we haven't banned trees, or created regulations banning their use. So we make choices daily that may or may not be harmful. :QUOTE
Hi Auplater!
So you're saying that as all other things are harmful, it doesn't matter if we use some more toxic's? Say that to childrens from some of the countries in East Europe.
Now during communist era, everything concerning industries were misused. But that is something we have to calculate with, when end users are human. And you as a physician should know that heavy metals stores in a body.
QUOTE: have been environmental safety officer in mega-corporations, etc., so I have expertise in this field. QUOTE
Hmm, then you know how multi million dollars corporation thinks/acts if not forced by politicians! I agree that many times politicians acts just for next election and make some foolish desicions. Still, it's the best we got for the moment.
As last I'm not surprised that US did not sign Kyoto deal when I see similar comments from people of your country in different forums.
Cheers
Hi Auplater!
So you're saying that as all other things are harmful, it doesn't matter if we use some more toxic's? Say that to childrens from some of the countries in East Europe.
Now during communist era, everything concerning industries were misused. But that is something we have to calculate with, when end users are human. And you as a physician should know that heavy metals stores in a body.
QUOTE: have been environmental safety officer in mega-corporations, etc., so I have expertise in this field. QUOTE
Hmm, then you know how multi million dollars corporation thinks/acts if not forced by politicians! I agree that many times politicians acts just for next election and make some foolish desicions. Still, it's the best we got for the moment.
As last I'm not surprised that US did not sign Kyoto deal when I see similar comments from people of your country in different forums.
Cheers
Well, I am also surprised about the reaction to the material. I would have more concerns about environmental issues. What happened with the lead as you trashed the speaker?
Anyway, even though lead has a few interesting properties when it comes to loudspeaker design, there are definitely other ways of achieving the same results.
So I agree, there is little reason to use lead in speakers and environmental/health concerns should keep us from using it.
Anyway, even though lead has a few interesting properties when it comes to loudspeaker design, there are definitely other ways of achieving the same results.
So I agree, there is little reason to use lead in speakers and environmental/health concerns should keep us from using it.
I'm a bit surprised at your sensitivity to the lead, and it suggests a couple questions. First, can you solder with no problem? If handling solder doesn't cause a problem, I'd ask another question. Where did you get the lead, and is it possible it was contaminated with something else, or that something else could be reacting with it. Things are often not as they seem on the surface.
Svante, you're absolutely right. I must admit that I acted with no sense at all. I make differentiation (paper, metal, plastics) in while accumulating garbage even at work, but this time I acted like a stupid, I simply thrashed it. An idiot way to act, I admit, but I was not very present when I've done it. I was working at the speakers from some months, and I was angry when I token that decision.
I never left a death car battery in a non-proper place, and so on. Sorry to admit it, please excuse myself.
Conrad, effectively I must admit that I had some problems while soldering in the past, but I don't know how to relate it now: I only use no-lead metal to solder (Sn/Cu/Ag).
I get the lead in a great hydraulic shop, It was placed at open air near copper profiles, I think that there wasn't strange way of contamination.
Excuse me again, I take in great consideration the environment. I was a stupid.
I never left a death car battery in a non-proper place, and so on. Sorry to admit it, please excuse myself.
Conrad, effectively I must admit that I had some problems while soldering in the past, but I don't know how to relate it now: I only use no-lead metal to solder (Sn/Cu/Ag).
I get the lead in a great hydraulic shop, It was placed at open air near copper profiles, I think that there wasn't strange way of contamination.
Excuse me again, I take in great consideration the environment. I was a stupid.
peterbrorsson said:
No... this is what I said...
Too many politicians who don't have a clue about REAL safety issues in the world are misleading those naive enough to think they're being protected with psuedoscience and drivel pronouncements and policies that are at odds with reality...
>>As last I'm not surprised that US did not sign Kyoto deal when I see similar comments from people of your country in different forums.<<
pretty inflamatory statement... but then, given your apparent lack of knowledge on the subject, I'd expect nothing less...this isn't the forum for such derogatory statements.. goodbye
No... this is what I said...
Too many politicians who don't have a clue about REAL safety issues in the world are misleading those naive enough to think they're being protected with psuedoscience and drivel pronouncements and policies that are at odds with reality...
>>As last I'm not surprised that US did not sign Kyoto deal when I see similar comments from people of your country in different forums.<<
pretty inflamatory statement... but then, given your apparent lack of knowledge on the subject, I'd expect nothing less...this isn't the forum for such derogatory statements.. goodbye
__________________
auplater
"Clever phase"
Agreed, no point with this exchange.
Adios
Too many politicians who don't have a clue about REAL safety issues in the world are misleading those naive enough to think they're being protected with psuedoscience and drivel pronouncements and policies that are at odds with reality...
>>As last I'm not surprised that US did not sign Kyoto deal when I see similar comments from people of your country in different forums.<<
pretty inflamatory statement... but then, given your apparent lack of knowledge on the subject, I'd expect nothing less...this isn't the forum for such derogatory statements.. goodbye
__________________
auplater
"Clever phase"
Agreed, no point with this exchange.
Adios
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