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Old 24th September 2008, 12:17 PM   #21
pelanj is offline pelanj  Czech Republic
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Hello graaf, I have read maybe all your posts about Stereolith and other non-standard speakers.

From the information I can find, it is not clear, if the stereolith has two internal chambers (one for each woofer) or one in common. Both could make sense in a way...

Anyway, I am in the process of searching for unusual bookshelf loudspeakers above my workdesk and for a second main system - my room is quite small (3,5x4,3 m) and that rules out my favorite horns. I am kind of tired from small 2 way bass reflex mini monitors - maybe those are the last resort (with quality drivers).
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Old 24th September 2008, 04:41 PM   #22
graaf is offline graaf  Poland
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Quote:
Originally posted by pelanj
Hello graaf, I have read maybe all your posts about Stereolith and other non-standard speakers.
hello!
nice to know that someone is reading

Quote:
Originally posted by pelanj

From the information I can find, it is not clear, if the stereolith has two internal chambers (one for each woofer) or one in common. Both could make sense in a way...
AFAIK nothing in Stereolith-principle theory suggests that common chamber for both channel's woofers is something on which the principle's operation depends
also nothing about common chamber in Schupbach patent despcritions allthough I haven't read patent despcritions for His latest/current line of loudspeakers - those with mono tweeters
I have heard rumours that both woofers in fact work in common volume but I cannof confirmed that.
BUT I never used original Stereolith.
I only first tried to position conventional speakers back-to-back and then I built my own "stereolits", in fact quite independently, not knowing at the time of Schupbach's earlier work.
My aim was to build an ambiopole that could work without physical barrier or electronic crosstalk cancellation.

Quote:
I am in the process of searching for unusual bookshelf loudspeakers above my workdesk and for a second main system - my room is quite small (3,5x4,3 m) and that rules out my favorite horns.
quite a long time ago I tried to get anyone at AudioAsylum interested in Stereolith and one guy followed my recommendations:
http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?...neral&n=357231
http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/gen...35/357386.html

in His smaller room "the effects were excellent"

so perhaps worth trying

best!
graaf
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Old 25th September 2008, 11:55 AM   #23
el`Ol is offline el`Ol  Germany
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Hello graaf!

I searched patent databases and only got patents for strange multi-driver arrays. Do you know wheter the actual Stereolith speakers use some L-R component?
I did the following arrangement of my Carlsson prototypes and found that good stereophonic recordings in fact produce a good image of the instruments and vocalists, but only the Carlsson arrangement gives you a sense for the room. One advantage however is that one can listened to synthetic reverb productions, too.


Regards,
Oliver
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Old 25th September 2008, 01:02 PM   #24
pelanj is offline pelanj  Czech Republic
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Hello Oliver,
what a nice and unorthodox system you have Could you please describe it briefly and maybe add some pictures and listening impressions?

Out of many other, I like Carlsson designs very much, especially OA-52. I have a friend in Denmark who promised to get a pair of used Carlssons when he can get them for a good price.
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Old 25th September 2008, 03:47 PM   #25
graaf is offline graaf  Poland
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Quote:
Originally posted by el`Ol
Hello graaf!
I searched patent databases and only got patents for strange multi-driver arrays. Do you know wheter the actual Stereolith speakers use some L-R component?
those multidriver arrays are earlier versions of Stereolith
here is an example: http://cgi.ebay.pl/Stereolith-exklus...QQcmdZViewItem
to my knowledge Stereolith never used "L-R"
from it's begining this was separate approach different from any kind of "matrix stereo" L+R/L-R etc.
models from their current line use "mono" tweeter, "L+R" as I understand it
because according to Mr Schupbach our spatial hearing relies effectively on cues at frequencies <1.5 kHz, espacially around 1 kHz

Quote:
Originally posted by el`Ol

I did the following arrangement of my Carlsson prototypes
WOW! el`Ol, You are great!

Quote:
Originally posted by el`Ol

and found that good stereophonic recordings in fact produce a good image of the instruments and vocalists, but only the Carlsson arrangement gives you a sense for the room.
by "a sense for the room" You mean "a sense of the recording venue" or "a sense of the listening room"?

by "Carlsson arrangement" You mean "on the floor next to wall"? or "on the floor in corners"?

what is the distance between speakers in "Carlsson arrangement"?

Quote:
Originally posted by el`Ol

One advantage however is that one can listened to synthetic reverb productions, too.
yes, multitrack pan potted stereo works with stereolit IF the reverb is there, may be artificial, no problem
when there is a lot of reverb effects can be spectacular, even if it is synthetic, in fact electronic music can sound quite surrealstic - we are immersed in music that is everywhere around us and the listening room completely disappears

BUT if there is no reverb, no distance cues in the recording then with stereolit there is "no distance=no soundstage", literally - "soundstage height/width/depth=0"

this is fidelity!
no stupid tricks
garbage in - garbage out

best!
graaf
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Old 25th September 2008, 04:33 PM   #26
el`Ol is offline el`Ol  Germany
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For those who donīt know the concept of the Carlsson OA-50 series (probably almost everyone ) here is a picture of the setup these strange speakers are built for. There is more information about these speakers at http://www.carlssonplanet.com
In the article about the design principles of Carlsson speakers you already get an impression what the problem of these speakers is:
Recordings.
Good binaural recordings can be damned close to reality. Recordings of this kind are those of the BIS that were done with the Sennheiser MKH-105 omnidirectional small diaphragm RF modulation/demodulation microphone. And what I mean with realism is not just a fake. I have a BIS sampler where you can clearly hear the different dimensions of the different rooms.
OT:
Suggestions for good recordings are highly welcomed here.

Productions with synthetic reverb are a mess. You get a three source performance: Left speaker, right speaker, and a clump of sound between them with 2m diameter right behind the wall.
Absolutely not recommended for people who mainly listen to pop or rock music.

Drivers are Ciare HX160, IMO clearly the best of Ciareīs fullrangers. They play in one league with the Veravox drivers in terms of midrange resolution and the ability to handle complex music, but are clearly better on top. They have a strange bifurcation of the polar response, the top octave is mainly radiated in a 45° angle to the axis, which makes them ideal for this setup. Use in conventional speakers is possible, but even here they have to be rotated inwards, with axes crossing in front of the listener.
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Old 25th September 2008, 05:20 PM   #27
Jim G is offline Jim G  Canada
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Hi, Very interesting. How do they sound on the floor in a low position like Carlson? Do you really need to have them higher as pictured?
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Old 25th September 2008, 06:18 PM   #28
el`Ol is offline el`Ol  Germany
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I need to have it on ear-height for good results. Maybe this is because I have less reflecting wooden ceilings. With ceiling firing systems like in graafīs thread The Advantages of Floor Coupled Up-Firing Speakers this was similar.
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Old 26th September 2008, 08:18 AM   #29
graaf is offline graaf  Poland
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Quote:
Originally posted by el`Ol

Productions with synthetic reverb are a mess. You get a three source performance: Left speaker, right speaker, and a clump of sound between them with 2m diameter right behind the wall.
You have suggested that ceiling firing system (for short - CFS) like the one I have proposed is better "all rounder":

Quote:
Originally posted by el`Ol

For those who want to experience the effect but donīt want to mourn about the recording glory of the past all day the "ceiling flooder" is probably the better solution.
what is the advantage of the Carlssons over CFS?

You have said above that in comparison to "stereolith positioning" "the Carlsson arrangement gives you a sense for the room"
what about CFS?

best!
graaf
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Old 26th September 2008, 10:11 AM   #30
el`Ol is offline el`Ol  Germany
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First some words to the moderator:
I would find it useful to merge this thread from post 26 on with the thread mentioned in post 28.

A brief comparison between CFS, Carlsson and Stereolith-like setup(SLS): The Carlsson gives you the impression of sitting in a real room (and this is not the listening room). Different binaural recordings lead to the perception of different room dimensions. I canīt say whether they are 100% correct, but they are different and they are realistic.
Both CFS and SLS, same as carlsson, give you a better impression that instruments are "really there" than a conventional setup. The main difference between SLS and CFS is the width of the soundstage. Both however donīt give you the impression of a real room, despite real-sonding instruments (hard to describe to someone who hasnīt heard it).
A short experiment with a baffle like used in ambiophonics i did some time ago showed a result that is not substantially different from the SLS, maybe a bit better, but you really need that legendary vise for your head. The ambiophonics concept http://www.ambiophonics.org deals with the width and room information deficit by using many speakers and massive DSP power.
My recommendation for an "allrounder" that is, in contrast to the Carlsson, capable of handling synthetic reverb, is the CFS. As reported in a German forum the Visaton B200 works very well in a TL. The TQWT I built for the Ciare HX201 (which has a similar polar response) has the disadvantage of a huge upper bass bump, that would need some really large caps&coils for compensation. A compensation of the ~1.5 kHz bump that could appear with the B200, dependent of the listening room, may need a notch. Of course one could build a speaker with bass support for either of the two, like I intend for the HX160-Carlsson.
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