Has anyone got any experience with the newer generation of 15" pro drivers in domestic applications? Been wondering about 18Sound, BMS, Ciare, Beyma, B&C, Eminence, P Audio etc and am looking for assistance in narrowing down the candidates as they're expensive to buy and test. In my application they'd be used < 400Hz.
So far I've only seen a mention of the 18Sound 15N930 here.
Any links etc you may know of would also be appreciated.
So far I've only seen a mention of the 18Sound 15N930 here.
Any links etc you may know of would also be appreciated.
No personal experience.. but this driver has always caught my eye for its non-linear distortion, especially near resonance (..in particular note its measured reference and its scaling):
http://www.bmspro.info/index.php?show=item&usbid=10282&id=54386
Still.. the mass is pretty significant and the suspension is going to detract from some of its linear behavior above 100 Hz, so the driver I'm looking forward to is not a 15 inch pro.. but rather 2 8" drivers:
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/pipeline.htm
That Jantzen JA8008 is from Seas but spec'ed by Troels. Really looking forward to seeing its T/S param's and impulse response (..and all of its convolutions).
http://www.bmspro.info/index.php?show=item&usbid=10282&id=54386
Still.. the mass is pretty significant and the suspension is going to detract from some of its linear behavior above 100 Hz, so the driver I'm looking forward to is not a 15 inch pro.. but rather 2 8" drivers:
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/pipeline.htm
That Jantzen JA8008 is from Seas but spec'ed by Troels. Really looking forward to seeing its T/S param's and impulse response (..and all of its convolutions).
I use a PHL 18 inch pro driver, and cross it at 300 hz to another phl mid (high power handling, but I don't think it's classed as a pro driver).
I like it very much indeed, but am left wondering whether if I did it again I would use a pro driver. The only reason I say that is due to it being a pro driver it does not want to go all that low naturally. It's natural -3 db point was something around 70 hz from memory.
I currently use a deqx, prior to that I used the dcx. To get it to go low I threw heaps of eq and power at it, but the best I could ever get was flat in the room to 29 hz. Don't get me wrong, it was still VERY impressive and had a LOT of oomph ( if you'll pardon the esoteric audiophile lingo).
I have since built some subs that get me to 13 hz in room, and I took some of the 'strain' of the 18 by crossing it around 80 hz or so. I didn't really hear any distortion previously, but logic says that by eq'ing it so hard it must have been present.
So from that regard if I had my time again I would perhaps have picked a bass driver that goes low anyway and maybe have avoided the sub. I think you'll find most pro drivers don't go low, as it's not really needed at the concert (??)
I like it very much indeed, but am left wondering whether if I did it again I would use a pro driver. The only reason I say that is due to it being a pro driver it does not want to go all that low naturally. It's natural -3 db point was something around 70 hz from memory.
I currently use a deqx, prior to that I used the dcx. To get it to go low I threw heaps of eq and power at it, but the best I could ever get was flat in the room to 29 hz. Don't get me wrong, it was still VERY impressive and had a LOT of oomph ( if you'll pardon the esoteric audiophile lingo).
I have since built some subs that get me to 13 hz in room, and I took some of the 'strain' of the 18 by crossing it around 80 hz or so. I didn't really hear any distortion previously, but logic says that by eq'ing it so hard it must have been present.
So from that regard if I had my time again I would perhaps have picked a bass driver that goes low anyway and maybe have avoided the sub. I think you'll find most pro drivers don't go low, as it's not really needed at the concert (??)
Hi Terry,
I'm not so worried about the LF from them, mainly sensitivity and I have <80-100Hz covered. I have a very strong preference for efficient low distortion designs and at my home a very large room to fill with little room gain. I also prefer tube amps and am aiming to design something that has all the dynamic snap of my old horns, but none of the other anomolies of the breed. It's also going to be an overkill system; I posted a thread about my ideas a while back and have been refining them since.
The PHLs are excellent drivers from reputation. I think I read somewhere that they're designed by former Audax people. I'd appreciate knowing what the 6" is as I've looked at these too. Did you have to import them?
Interesting that all the good new designs are coming from Europe now.
Cheers
I'm not so worried about the LF from them, mainly sensitivity and I have <80-100Hz covered. I have a very strong preference for efficient low distortion designs and at my home a very large room to fill with little room gain. I also prefer tube amps and am aiming to design something that has all the dynamic snap of my old horns, but none of the other anomolies of the breed. It's also going to be an overkill system; I posted a thread about my ideas a while back and have been refining them since.
The PHLs are excellent drivers from reputation. I think I read somewhere that they're designed by former Audax people. I'd appreciate knowing what the 6" is as I've looked at these too. Did you have to import them?
Interesting that all the good new designs are coming from Europe now.
Cheers
well if you don't need to go low then it's all rosy
I too have heard about the guy being from Audax, guess that makes it official ha ha.
I use the 1660 mid driver, you would have to look up the sensitivity (I do know it's more sensitive than the cabbasse tweeter I use) and in any case all that is looked after for me by the deqx. A recent Aussie design that is making waves (SGR) uses the 16 ohm version (they run them in D'Appolito) so the gab on them is certainly positive. They do have a rough breakup around 6K from memory, again of little concern to me when I use 150db/octave slopes.
I would have to look up which 18 it is if you were interested, in any case it is the one described as 'optimised for sound quality over efficiency' or some such (that is if you can believe the marketing) and they are still around 92 db efficient or so.
Pat at WAR Audio is the aussie distributor.
You are always more than welcome to hear my setup and make your own conclusions (after you posted about not being able to audition the pro drivers you are looking at), means a little drive though
They are not cheap, the 18 was around $850 from memory, the 6 inch is around $280 again from memory.
I too have heard about the guy being from Audax, guess that makes it official ha ha.
I use the 1660 mid driver, you would have to look up the sensitivity (I do know it's more sensitive than the cabbasse tweeter I use) and in any case all that is looked after for me by the deqx. A recent Aussie design that is making waves (SGR) uses the 16 ohm version (they run them in D'Appolito) so the gab on them is certainly positive. They do have a rough breakup around 6K from memory, again of little concern to me when I use 150db/octave slopes.
I would have to look up which 18 it is if you were interested, in any case it is the one described as 'optimised for sound quality over efficiency' or some such (that is if you can believe the marketing) and they are still around 92 db efficient or so.
Pat at WAR Audio is the aussie distributor.
You are always more than welcome to hear my setup and make your own conclusions (after you posted about not being able to audition the pro drivers you are looking at), means a little drive though
They are not cheap, the 18 was around $850 from memory, the 6 inch is around $280 again from memory.
Thanks, I've got most of the datasheets so I'll look at them again to check the model on the 18. The 1660 caught my eye before as did the 1120's.terry j said:well if you don't need to go low then it's all rosy
I too have heard about the guy being from Audax, guess that makes it official ha ha.
I use the 1660 mid driver, you would have to look up the sensitivity (I do know it's more sensitive than the cabbasse tweeter I use) and in any case all that is looked after for me by the deqx. A recent Aussie design that is making waves (SGR) uses the 16 ohm version (they run them in D'Appolito) so the gab on them is certainly positive. They do have a rough breakup around 6K from memory, again of little concern to me when I use 150db/octave slopes.
I would have to look up which 18 it is if you were interested, in any case it is the one described as 'optimised for sound quality over efficiency' or some such (that is if you can believe the marketing) and they are still around 92 db efficient or so.
Pat at WAR Audio is the aussie distributor.
You are always more than welcome to hear my setup and make your own conclusions (after you posted about not being able to audition the pro drivers you are looking at), means a little drive though
They are not cheap, the 18 was around $850 from memory, the 6 inch is around $280 again from memory.
Are you still having a bit of a GTG over Bathurst weekend?
Brett said:
Of course it's possible that if you aren't trying to go too low, then you might not go with an 18 for many reasons, WAF?? for example. Personally I find the 'weight' given by the 18 even if only going from 80-300 hz impressive, no strain at all and a sound I have yet to hear duplicated elsewhere. Still, I suppose a 12 will do that adequately too.
In any case, if you did hear them you would undoubtedly hear the 'family resemblance' as it were. I know drivers aren't supposed to have a sound, but I think you get what I mean.
Sure, the Bathurst weekend is still on, am kinda surprised at the lack of interest from the other thread, given all the initial 'want to's' that popped up when the thread was first floated. Oh well.
No W so no WAF. The description given sounds like what I'm looking for.terry j said:
Bad car anaology time: I used to have some great turbo Rotaries in lightweight cars. Great cars, very quick, but very hectic feeling. I always wanted to go fast in them. But another mate had a worked big block in an old Holden (an HX with an alloy BB is quite light). When he hit the go pedal, it changed postcodes and did it with this ease that I've still never felt in a car. A similar sort of scale and ease is what I'm looking for out of these speakers. They'll be big, have lots of drivers and be stupid efficient. Now I just need to make sure it all sounds good as I intend it to be the last project for a looooong time.
I've been waiting for some things to settle here before I put my hand up. My mate Chris and I will ride up for the day as that's all we can.terry j said:
Looking forward to hearing your speakers.
Brett said:
Yeah, that analogy is kinda what I'm talking about.
I'll e-mail you re the weekend, glad you and your mate can make it. For all I know you may not like them, and that's OK too, you will have at least learnt something. I assume Chris is into audio too? Funny how not too much interest from the other NSWelshmen. Most are coming from Melbourne!!
EDIT
Looks like you've not enabled e-mail, wonder if mine is working?? Click on me and try it, that way I can get back to you.
I tested an 18S 18ND930 against a BMS 15S430 some time ago. The designs were similar in size (15" design volume was 80% of the 18", the volume beeing gross vol.). Their sensitivity average was in the same ball park in the operating band. They were EQd to same target. Both were fed with an amplifier doing potentially ~1,4 kW to the load the designs presented. The 18" design sounded "softer" and more "muddy". The 15" design was veeery tight and controlled up to amp clip. The amp clipped slightly earlier with the 18". Max SPL was similar with no clear difference. Lesson learned: try it your self . . .
Thanks. What was the upper frequency limit of your test, or did you just run them open?-CGL- said:I tested an 18S 18ND930 against a BMS 15S430 some time ago. The designs were similar in size (15" design volume was 80% of the 18", the volume beeing gross vol.). Their sensitivity average was in the same ball park in the operating band. They were EQd to same target. Both were fed with an amplifier doing potentially ~1,4 kW to the load the designs presented. The 18" design sounded "softer" and more "muddy". The 15" design was veeery tight and controlled up to amp clip. The amp clipped slightly earlier with the 18". Max SPL was similar with no clear difference. Lesson learned: try it your self . . .
Did you do and THD, FR, IMP etc tests on them as I'd be very keen to see any independent measured data. The BMS and the 15N930 are high on my list atm. Been using the 4590 since 2001.
Brett said:
LP acoustically was around 100 Hz or something. FR for both was quite ragged above, say, 150 Hz because both boxes were without fill... When used with suitable amount of fill, both of the tested drivers should work ok to some 500 Hz or so. I have the IR´s somewhere, but those were taken without distortion in mind.
I think you would like the 4592 even more. I have both somewhere upstairs . . .
If you want to optimize over 80-400 Hz that narrows the selection down a lot because most pro 15s are designed to be used in a system where they play all the way down and consequently end up with lower than possible midbass/midrange sensitivity (90-95 dB 2.83V at 1m). The few units out there that are more suited for midbass can achieve 99-100 dB 2.83V at 1m in the proper enclosure. At one point I was looking for a unit to do pretty close to the same thing (80-250) and the three drivers I kept coming back to were:
Eminence Kappalite 3015
B&C 15PS76
18 Sound 15MB700
If you've got the cash and can deal with a little bigger driver you may also want to consider the B&C 18PS76.
Here's my experience: I ended up settling on the Kappalite because compared to the prices on the others available to me at the time it was about half price. I run it in 2.5 cubes tuned to 75 Hz, and when you throw baffle step in it is pretty flat over the desired range with about 99 dB senstivity. It achieves almost exactly what I want from it and nothing more- I have a "75w" amp on it and in the system it can hit peaks of around 110 dB at 3m, and when cranking the system as loud as I ever want to go with the most compressed music I'd ever listen to, it's dissipating a little under 10w of power, which is just below the point where the compression would be non-negligible. The cone excursion at the highest peak is somewhere around 1-2 mm, and at normal listening volumes is entirely negligible. Even at full volumes the nonlinear distortion is very low. The driver behaves as a piston throughout the range I'm using it, is essentially omnidirectional in the front hemisphere (baffle controls directivity), the enclosure dimensions are such that the lowest mode in the longest dimension lies outside of the bandwidth of the driver, and the driver's size and crosspoint are such that it along with the 12" midrange it is mated to at the crosspoint together are still wide radiating vertically. The air velocity in the port (8.5" diameter flared) at full volume is low enough that port compression is negligible and there are certainly no port "noises." At this point I don't forsee changing the midbass part of the system any time soon.
Eminence Kappalite 3015
B&C 15PS76
18 Sound 15MB700
If you've got the cash and can deal with a little bigger driver you may also want to consider the B&C 18PS76.
Here's my experience: I ended up settling on the Kappalite because compared to the prices on the others available to me at the time it was about half price. I run it in 2.5 cubes tuned to 75 Hz, and when you throw baffle step in it is pretty flat over the desired range with about 99 dB senstivity. It achieves almost exactly what I want from it and nothing more- I have a "75w" amp on it and in the system it can hit peaks of around 110 dB at 3m, and when cranking the system as loud as I ever want to go with the most compressed music I'd ever listen to, it's dissipating a little under 10w of power, which is just below the point where the compression would be non-negligible. The cone excursion at the highest peak is somewhere around 1-2 mm, and at normal listening volumes is entirely negligible. Even at full volumes the nonlinear distortion is very low. The driver behaves as a piston throughout the range I'm using it, is essentially omnidirectional in the front hemisphere (baffle controls directivity), the enclosure dimensions are such that the lowest mode in the longest dimension lies outside of the bandwidth of the driver, and the driver's size and crosspoint are such that it along with the 12" midrange it is mated to at the crosspoint together are still wide radiating vertically. The air velocity in the port (8.5" diameter flared) at full volume is low enough that port compression is negligible and there are certainly no port "noises." At this point I don't forsee changing the midbass part of the system any time soon.
The plan was to use a BMS 4552 / XT1086 flare in my rears, buy the baffle on the box design could be replaced and the 4590 moved there is I was ever convinced the 4592 was better. In what ways do you find it prefereable?-CGL- said:
This is basically what I'm wanting to do, and I can get the 18Sounds for the best prices. The 15MB700 was one that I'd had my eye on too.Rybaudio said:
The rest of your post is quite descriptive about the way I'm looking to approach my design and the results expected. Thanks.
Brett said:
The 4552/1086 craze might have been started by me some years ago
4592 is a refined, newer design compared to 4590. They measure better in term of flatness etc. I currently have only JBL 2360A horns with 2" throats, so I cant talk about sound as the horns ruins it anyways. Or did I see my BMS 2236 horns downstairs one day... (even worse, if possible).
Hi Andy
a bunch of mates are coming up from melbourne (as well as elsewhere) on the race weekend, Oct 4-7. They are mostly from SNA and are into audio, but not necessarily DIY.
I threw open an invitation to the locals on this forum over in the Aussie DIY thread, and except for Brett just now only Moondog 55 looks like he might come-once again from Melbourne??!!?? What is it with melbourne people ha ha.
A couple are coming to make use of the close proximity of the track (as well as catching up with other audio mates) but most are just coming for fun and to have a listen to my system and not go to the races at all, and a commercial fellow could be bringing his latest to unveil to the great smelly masses.
There are still a bed or two available if you and Rabbitz (and collo?) wanted to share a car down, I would be chuffed and delighted to meet you guys. We are on sixteen acres so if the beds are gone but you have some sort of camping gear then all is hunky dory. As I write there are still some beds open though. Or even a mattress as there is plenty of floor space.
A couple of Kiwi mates are coming too, and so I have my fingers crossed that Australia and NZ meet in a semi of the world cup that weekend as well, should add a bit of spice to the proceedings. If we lose then I suppose everyone else wins as they will not have to listen to me for the rest of the weekend as I'll be off sulking somewhere ha ha.
a bunch of mates are coming up from melbourne (as well as elsewhere) on the race weekend, Oct 4-7. They are mostly from SNA and are into audio, but not necessarily DIY.
I threw open an invitation to the locals on this forum over in the Aussie DIY thread, and except for Brett just now only Moondog 55 looks like he might come-once again from Melbourne??!!?? What is it with melbourne people ha ha.
A couple are coming to make use of the close proximity of the track (as well as catching up with other audio mates) but most are just coming for fun and to have a listen to my system and not go to the races at all, and a commercial fellow could be bringing his latest to unveil to the great smelly masses.
There are still a bed or two available if you and Rabbitz (and collo?) wanted to share a car down, I would be chuffed and delighted to meet you guys. We are on sixteen acres so if the beds are gone but you have some sort of camping gear then all is hunky dory. As I write there are still some beds open though. Or even a mattress as there is plenty of floor space.
A couple of Kiwi mates are coming too, and so I have my fingers crossed that Australia and NZ meet in a semi of the world cup that weekend as well, should add a bit of spice to the proceedings. If we lose then I suppose everyone else wins as they will not have to listen to me for the rest of the weekend as I'll be off sulking somewhere ha ha.
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