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Old 30th August 2007, 08:10 PM   #21
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Oceanic30 wrote:
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I don't know about those 15'' Audio Technology drivers... That poly cone might be to soft to offer a fast, tight bass, the bass might be too fat and woolly for my taste. And I don't know if it's good to pass directly from a 15'' woofer to a 4'' midrange.
Cone material has nothing to do with tight or fat or wooly bass. The only issue is pistonic motion on a given frequencies range and therefore distortion/break-up modes.
Moreover, fast, fat and wooly bass do not exist: bass is...only bass (damped or not, so tight or not, haha
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Old 30th August 2007, 08:19 PM   #22
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Originally posted by Brett
What I know will work, and very well.
JBL 2226H, ported 75L / 40Hz
JBL 2123H 300 -1K
BMS 4552 or Beyma CP380M on a great flare like a DDS ENG1-90 Pro.
95dB sensitivity and less distortion than smaller drivers working hard. Excellent motor and diaphram designs.

I'm researching newer options of similar drivers. Audiophile stuff are like toys compared to these.
Bingo, we have a winner! I am going to use 2225H ( may recone to 2235H) 2123H, and 2425H on 2344A......I have heard great thing about the BMS, and I may just have to buy a couple to fool with. Other speakers ARE like toys once you've heard drivers like these properly used. By the by, what crossovers are you using?

Russellc
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Old 30th August 2007, 08:30 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by crazyhub
Oceanic30 wrote: Cone material has nothing to do with tight or fat or wooly bass. The only issue is pistonic motion on a given frequencies range and therefore distortion/break-up modes.
Moreover, fast, fat and wooly bass do not exist: bass is...only bass (damped or not, so tight or not, haha

Of course the bass is not fat! I was thinking to the transient response and the timing with the other drivers. With large orchestral material I don't know if that 15'' AT would match a 10'' alu ScanSpeak in transient response and timing, I think the alu cone may be faster then the poly one even if both have a pistonic movement for a given frequencies range.
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Old 30th August 2007, 08:55 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by Russellc


Bingo, we have a winner! I am going to use 2225H ( may recone to 2235H) 2123H, and 2425H on 2344A......I have heard great thing about the BMS, and I may just have to buy a couple to fool with. Other speakers ARE like toys once you've heard drivers like these properly used. By the by, what crossovers are you using?

Russellc
I'm not using these exact drivers, but I've heard similar systems with modern design details that take the old JBL designs and kill them in performance.
Personally, I'd stay with the 2225/6 and then use a dedicated sub. I'm also not a fan of the babybutt flares, with the DDS and 18Sound 1086 looking like far superior designs to me (built a lot of horns). Don't want to sound unneccessarily critical or dismissive, just expressing my personal preferences. I do know it'll sound better than about anything else out there. Philes that hear well designed and interated Pro based designs are usually floored with their ease, unless they actually like constipated audio. However, I find most are too biassed and think that Pro components mean it'll sound like a PA.

I'm going to be using Beyma 15G40's (because I have them) in an SBB4 cab, with the 2123 at 300Hz and the 4552 or maybe 18Sound ND1030 on the XT1086. These are going to be my rears and will be active with opa2134 based LR24 xovers, 3886 Gainclones for the MF/HF and a UCD180 for the Beymas.

This thread outlined my thinking a couple of weeks ago, but there's been a lot of developments since, which I'll post later when I have something substantive.
Large high efficiency WMTMW speaker project

You've probably seen it before, but I just love this: I'd do it differently, but the excess is perfect.
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Old 30th August 2007, 09:20 PM   #25
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oceanic30 wrote:
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I don't know if that 15'' AT would match a 10'' alu ScanSpeak in transient response and timing, I think the alu cone may be faster then the poly one even if both have a pistonic movement for a given frequencies range.
Transient response and timing has to do with the acoustic loading and the x-over, NOT with the cone material. If it is exact that alu has a greater inner sound velocity than softer materials like poly, all the frequencies from both drivers will propagate with exactly the same speed in the air (342m/s). The 15"AT can match a 10" alu cone if you chose the right x-over point and slope: type of acoustic loading (transient/dampening and therefore group-delay), directivity, distortion and efficiency are the key words.
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Old 30th August 2007, 10:02 PM   #26
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Originally posted by crazyhub
oceanic30 wrote: Transient response and timing has to do with the acoustic loading and the x-over, NOT with the cone material. If it is exact that alu has a greater inner sound velocity than softer materials like poly, all the frequencies from both drivers will propagate with exactly the same speed in the air (342m/s). The 15"AT can match a 10" alu cone if you chose the right x-over point and slope: type of acoustic loading (transient/dampening and therefore group-delay), directivity, distortion and efficiency are the key words.
Ok, I don't want to start a discussion about which woofer beats that woofer.

Being curios about that AT, I've run a simulation in BassBox 6 Pro for the 15'' model listed on the AT site and a SS 26W/4867T00 alu cone. I prefer sealed boxes. Recommended by the software:

AT 15'' - 52.51 l box, F3 = 73.47 Hz (a bit (un)low for a 15'' woofer)
SS 10'' - 21.42 l box, F3 = 56.93Hz

Did you see the mass and the maximum excursion of this 15'' AT? 127 g & 46 mm, while the SS has 51 g & 14 mm; I really think the lighter, smaller excursion SS it's faster and more precise then that soft and flexible poly cone, not to mention that this 10'' gives better bass then the 15'' AT. Looks like Zaph is right when he says that woofers with small excursion sound better then those with a bigger one. That poly cone can't match the speed and precision of the SS alu cone, it doesn't have the stiffness and lightness of the alu cone, even if the AT motors are stronger than those on the SS.

Also, I think that transient response and timing HAS also to do with the cone material since the physical properties of the respective material influence the way a cone moves and, accordingly, its transient response and timing.
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Old 30th August 2007, 11:29 PM   #27
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oceanic30,

Heavier mass does only lowering efficiency, not the band-pass extension (except in the bass range by lowering fs); heavier mass doesn't affect transients or what you name "speed". "Speed" simply doesn't exist in a physical point of view about sound. A listening impression of "speed" comes from uppermid and high frequencies which are reproduced with the proper intensity. To get intensity and low directivity at high frequencies, you first need a small cone area. That's why a 15" needs to be crossed lower than a 10" and this is all about. But with both you need a middriver...

A stiffer cone generally has reduced distortions in a given band-pass...and high Q break-up modes...that's all about, nothing to do with "speed" or transients. However I love the accuton stiffness for example, I guess the very high inner sound velocity allows reduced storage energy but they are also very well designed and builded (like the SS and AT) But you can also find floppy cones which have low storage energy, simply check Zaph's site...

High or small excursions: the only issue is the linear displacement of the VC in the magnetic field. Motor structure is responsable for that. Saying small excursion woofers sound better is very restrictive. I prefer an underhung or XBL2 +/-13mm motor than a +/- 10mm overhung type.

Sealed boxes: yes, me too I love them because of their unbeatable group delay. I tend to prefer Qtc 0.577 to 0.50.

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Old 31st August 2007, 12:55 AM   #28
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Default Re: Whats your pick for drivers in an ultimate 3way (for music)?

Quote:
Originally posted by m0tion
So, lets say 40Hz - 20KHz. What would you pair together as the drivers for your dream 3way? I was thinking:


Tweeter: Scan-Speak 6600 (AirCirc)
Mid: Accuton C44-8
Woofer: Scan-Speak 18W/8531G
If you're going with the C44, then I'd be more likely to push for the C92-6 as your bass speaker (in a sealed 28 litre enclosure) and the C12 tweeter.

Some other midranges you might consider also are Ciare 10.64, Celestion TF1020, ATC SM75-150S (measurements by ralphs99) and Audio Technology 4 H 52 06 13
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Old 31st August 2007, 01:14 AM   #29
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Cloth Ears:

I'm curious, why is it that you never see speakers with just one Accuton driver. Usually speakers that have Accuton drivers are all Accuton drivers (save Avalon w/ the occasional Eton woofer). I'm not saying I disagree with your recommendation, but why?

Interesting suggestions. I would like the mid to be smaller than the woofer though . The ATC seems great, but I think that it would require a complex crossover to equalize, maybe more trouble than it's worth? You have to be very confident in your xover skills to use that driver I think. The AT seems interesting also, I'll have to give those specs a closer look.
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Old 31st August 2007, 01:16 AM   #30
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Default Re: Whats your pick for drivers in an ultimate 3way (for music)?

Quote:
Originally posted by m0tion
So, lets say 40Hz - 20KHz. What would you pair together as the drivers for your dream 3way? I was thinking:


Tweeter: Scan-Speak 6600 (AirCirc)
Mid: Accuton C44-8
Woofer: Scan-Speak 18W/8531G
Interesting idea I just had. What if I kept the 4KHz and 800Hz 24dB/oct crossover points, but used two 18W/8531's. Does this cause comb filtering problems with the 800Hz crossover? What about localization and imaging problems, meaning that all the way up to 800Hz is coming from both 18W's?
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