Hi all,
Just looking for a kick in the butt to get going so please be kind.
First off, just to avoid the start small advice, I generally jump in way over my head, kindof my way to force myself to learn. Generally it works out. Problem is lately I have been absolutly swamped and my project has been put on the back burner.
A while back I picked up a pair of Accuton C95-T6 and a pair of Scanspeak revelators (D2905/9900) with grand intentions. I am not an absolute beginner to DIY although I don't have much experience with crossovers. My woodworking is decent though, so I thought I could jump right into design, learning as I go. Right now I have zero time though.
Lately I have been thinking that I should sell the drivers, but I know I will forever kick myself because it will be a long time before I buy something like this again. So what I am looking for is someone with some experience with these drivers to give me some insight to get me off my be-hind and headed in the right direction.
Looking to build a two-way, with sub for music only. I listen to all types of music. My HT system is complete, for now, and looking for a music only system built around these speakers. I have always preferred sealed designs but have yet to hear of anyone using the accutons in a sealed design.
Thanks for any insight.
Fred
Just looking for a kick in the butt to get going so please be kind.
First off, just to avoid the start small advice, I generally jump in way over my head, kindof my way to force myself to learn. Generally it works out. Problem is lately I have been absolutly swamped and my project has been put on the back burner.
A while back I picked up a pair of Accuton C95-T6 and a pair of Scanspeak revelators (D2905/9900) with grand intentions. I am not an absolute beginner to DIY although I don't have much experience with crossovers. My woodworking is decent though, so I thought I could jump right into design, learning as I go. Right now I have zero time though.
Lately I have been thinking that I should sell the drivers, but I know I will forever kick myself because it will be a long time before I buy something like this again. So what I am looking for is someone with some experience with these drivers to give me some insight to get me off my be-hind and headed in the right direction.
Looking to build a two-way, with sub for music only. I listen to all types of music. My HT system is complete, for now, and looking for a music only system built around these speakers. I have always preferred sealed designs but have yet to hear of anyone using the accutons in a sealed design.
Thanks for any insight.
Fred
buy the book
Fred, look on Accuton's web-site -{ www.accuton.com }- and get all the Data for that driver, and similarly on the site :- www.tymphany.com , get all the Revelator's data.
Then buy a copy of "Loudspeaker Design Cookbook" by Vance Dickason , in the new 7th Edition.
There you will find a lot about designing cross-overs and much else to help you make a good speaker.
You will also see in that book Dickason's own design speaker which uses the Revelator tweeter.
Fred, look on Accuton's web-site -{ www.accuton.com }- and get all the Data for that driver, and similarly on the site :- www.tymphany.com , get all the Revelator's data.
Then buy a copy of "Loudspeaker Design Cookbook" by Vance Dickason , in the new 7th Edition.
There you will find a lot about designing cross-overs and much else to help you make a good speaker.
You will also see in that book Dickason's own design speaker which uses the Revelator tweeter.
Thanks Alan,
I am a little ahead of that though. I have all the data and some software to work with. I guess I should've worded things a bit different. It was late last night.
All I am loooking for is if anybody has had great success using this Accuton driver. I don't have any problem with ported or more complex designs, but like I said generally I prefer the sound of sealed.
Thanks
I am a little ahead of that though. I have all the data and some software to work with. I guess I should've worded things a bit different. It was late last night.
All I am loooking for is if anybody has had great success using this Accuton driver. I don't have any problem with ported or more complex designs, but like I said generally I prefer the sound of sealed.
Thanks
My friend and I spent a year trying to get the best out of the smaller accutons (C76, C88). While their rendition of resolution and detail has few equals, they had several problems.
Here are my opinions:
I would recommend high order crossover slopes, the ceramic cone is not at all forgiving of break-up.
Traps might be needed to reduce the more serious out of band peaks.
They never sounded very musical to me.
Their dynamics were quite restricted, OK at just the right volume awful when playing louder or softer.
We had a chance to hear the Kharma Grand's at a HiFi show and they too exhibited this dynamic compression.
The C95 might be different, haven't heard that model.
Here are my opinions:
I would recommend high order crossover slopes, the ceramic cone is not at all forgiving of break-up.
Traps might be needed to reduce the more serious out of band peaks.
They never sounded very musical to me.
Their dynamics were quite restricted, OK at just the right volume awful when playing louder or softer.
We had a chance to hear the Kharma Grand's at a HiFi show and they too exhibited this dynamic compression.
The C95 might be different, haven't heard that model.
The C95 might not be the worst of the lot 
I am thinking about if it would work in a 2.5way with yet another but different woofer of some kind ... it might so to say, "fill in" some of the missing warmth
maybe something like this one could match the specs
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=296-410
On the other hand, it would just raise the cost even further ... though, 53 USD thats kind of cheap
I am thinking about if it would work in a 2.5way with yet another but different woofer of some kind ... it might so to say, "fill in" some of the missing warmth
maybe something like this one could match the specs
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=296-410
On the other hand, it would just raise the cost even further ... though, 53 USD thats kind of cheap
Tony Gee ("Geenius") had some success with the 89's and the 220's (see Humble Home-Made HiFi - Soup & Cup-a-Soup). Maybe he has some advice for you. Unless you're only playing very light music, I'd be thinking that you would probably need something to fill in the bass octave(s). Maybe an Eton or 2...
Hi Fred,
I used the C94 version together with the C23 tweeter. Judging by its specs the C94 is very similar to the C95 apart from differences in the 'tuning' - stronger magnetic damping and a softer spider. But for all intents and purposes, it's probably a safe guess that the same rules will apply.
check it out...
http://www.lechpapierski.info/Miscellaneous/diy_speaker.html
Go Active
With a passive crossover, I too found that its dynamics seemed restricted. Never mind that I used air-cored coils, polypropylene caps, and that the components didn't even get warm... Slowly turning up the volume would cause the sound to get harsher and harsher, until I got annoyed that it seemed to have such a low x-max. However, changing to active crossovers completely eliminated that problem.
Adjusting the volume now made the speakers louder or softer, with practically no change in tonality or colour. At high volume (say, filtered midbass peaks regularly exceeding +-20V) the sound becomes warmer from the unavoidable soft-distortion of speakers that are getting thrashed, but it is still perfectly listenable from a distance.
In my next project I'm definitely ditching the "classic rectangular box" theme, and will attempt to get even nicer dispersion characteristics and room response.
Cheers,
I used the C94 version together with the C23 tweeter. Judging by its specs the C94 is very similar to the C95 apart from differences in the 'tuning' - stronger magnetic damping and a softer spider. But for all intents and purposes, it's probably a safe guess that the same rules will apply.
check it out...
http://www.lechpapierski.info/Miscellaneous/diy_speaker.html
Go Active
With a passive crossover, I too found that its dynamics seemed restricted. Never mind that I used air-cored coils, polypropylene caps, and that the components didn't even get warm... Slowly turning up the volume would cause the sound to get harsher and harsher, until I got annoyed that it seemed to have such a low x-max. However, changing to active crossovers completely eliminated that problem.
Adjusting the volume now made the speakers louder or softer, with practically no change in tonality or colour. At high volume (say, filtered midbass peaks regularly exceeding +-20V) the sound becomes warmer from the unavoidable soft-distortion of speakers that are getting thrashed, but it is still perfectly listenable from a distance.
In my next project I'm definitely ditching the "classic rectangular box" theme, and will attempt to get even nicer dispersion characteristics and room response.
Cheers,
As "fast" as the Accutons are, I would guess that carefull attention to diffraction issues will return good rewards. Offset the tweeter, round corners as much as practical. Even the back panel should be rounded (we tested for this, it's easily audible). 4" radius is best, less is still better than square corners.
If you go passive crossover, only the better coils and capacitors should be used, I would lean strongly towards foil coils (12 AWG if you can afford them) and film and foil caps, polyprop or Teflon if you can pay the price of admission, nothing metallized. These drivers will happily exagerate any flaws in the source, amplifiers or crossover.
For first class speakers, time alignment is also important.
Good luck.
If you go passive crossover, only the better coils and capacitors should be used, I would lean strongly towards foil coils (12 AWG if you can afford them) and film and foil caps, polyprop or Teflon if you can pay the price of admission, nothing metallized. These drivers will happily exagerate any flaws in the source, amplifiers or crossover.
For first class speakers, time alignment is also important.
Good luck.
I'm using a pair of the C95's in a 2-way now. This is the first driver to make me question my near-absolute preference for doped paper drivers. They were given to me for some work I did, I'd had no plans to buy any. I put them into an unused ported box I had on hand, though it's not really a classic ported setup as they are. I'd have to call them a very lossy closed box. The box wasn't appropriate for the driver T/S specs, it just happened have the right driver cutout for a "quick" test. That was maybe 2-years ago and I'm still using them upstairs.
The box is stuffed fairly densely, hence the point about it not being a real "ported" box. There is some bass output at the rear port that I'm sure helps the low end extension a bit, but I've not measured it close-mic'ed to see just what it's doing. All I know is that the sound was unsatisfactory as a drop-in to the box, but when stuffed to make it more a closed box, the change was dramatic. It's that way now.
They're paired with a hybrid tweeter of mine that is essentially a Morel MDT-32. Your 9900 will be better, no doubt. I'd have to dig up the crossover info, but IIRC it's about a 2000Hz LR2. Yes, second order. That's the nice thing about the Accutons. Even as a hard cone, the breakup, at least on the C95, is very easily handled, not with the extremes in breakup seen in drivers such as Seas Excels.
I don't push it to overly high levels, but at DIY 2006 last year it was well received, especially the low end, and was pushed without strain. The extension is good for a stand-mount 2-way, one of the comments made by several of those on-hand. I suspect that it would really do well in a closed box 3-way, though I'd likely go with another driver for a 3-way had I not yet purchased them because I think that there are better midrange units available. Just personal preference, of course.
The crossover is passive and performs fine. The baffle is rectangular, but has slanted chamfers at the corners. This has almost no effect on the C95 due to the cone diameter. What is a benefit is to use some felt between tweeter and the C95 because hard cones make for a stronger diffraction influence to nearby tweeters.
The one thing that I did do, for the first time, was to make the design on the C95 axis. I usually use the tweeter axis. The relative acoustic offset is large enough that it worked out better. I use them in an inverted setup, tweeter below. I don't usually do this, either, but then I don't do many 2-ways with this size driver. It just worked out much better for this case.
The box is stuffed fairly densely, hence the point about it not being a real "ported" box. There is some bass output at the rear port that I'm sure helps the low end extension a bit, but I've not measured it close-mic'ed to see just what it's doing. All I know is that the sound was unsatisfactory as a drop-in to the box, but when stuffed to make it more a closed box, the change was dramatic. It's that way now.
They're paired with a hybrid tweeter of mine that is essentially a Morel MDT-32. Your 9900 will be better, no doubt. I'd have to dig up the crossover info, but IIRC it's about a 2000Hz LR2. Yes, second order. That's the nice thing about the Accutons. Even as a hard cone, the breakup, at least on the C95, is very easily handled, not with the extremes in breakup seen in drivers such as Seas Excels.
I don't push it to overly high levels, but at DIY 2006 last year it was well received, especially the low end, and was pushed without strain. The extension is good for a stand-mount 2-way, one of the comments made by several of those on-hand. I suspect that it would really do well in a closed box 3-way, though I'd likely go with another driver for a 3-way had I not yet purchased them because I think that there are better midrange units available. Just personal preference, of course.
The crossover is passive and performs fine. The baffle is rectangular, but has slanted chamfers at the corners. This has almost no effect on the C95 due to the cone diameter. What is a benefit is to use some felt between tweeter and the C95 because hard cones make for a stronger diffraction influence to nearby tweeters.
The one thing that I did do, for the first time, was to make the design on the C95 axis. I usually use the tweeter axis. The relative acoustic offset is large enough that it worked out better. I use them in an inverted setup, tweeter below. I don't usually do this, either, but then I don't do many 2-ways with this size driver. It just worked out much better for this case.
Hi there,
I build, and listen to, the Ceram which is a design by Udo Wohlgemuth and was published in the German magazine Klang + Ton a few years ago. It uses the C95T6 and the C23 tweeter
Here’s a link to a vendor
http://www.lautsprechershop.de/hifi/index_en.htm?/hifi/ceram_en.htm
end here’s a link to the website of the designer which has posted my build
http://www.acoustic-design-magazin.de/html/fotogalerie_2.html
Scroll down halfway.
I have build it Avalon style
.
I used a fulllrange speaker before (Jordan JX92) which I really liked because I like to ‘sound’of a one point source. I think the Ceram really comes close to a fullranger in this.
The bass from the C96T6 is really really good. Very dynamic en detailed. It’s really controlled, sometimes is just scares me! I believe Lumen white uses a custom version of this speaker in their designs. The design is BR but i believe it can be used in a closed design with the same volume.
I like the filter design because it uses so little components : a series filter with two coils, two caps and one resistor. This leaves a budget to use only high quality components I used Mundorf CFC12 copperfoil coils and Audyn Plus caps with parr. With Vishay 1837 0.1uF.
The tweeter is good and mixes really well with the woofer but it isn’t the last in transparency in my experience.
I would really like to listen to the woofer with the Eton ER4 Air Motion Transformer. A design with this combination is designed by Pure Dynamics in Austria and was tested in the last Klang + Ton.
http://www.lautsprechershop.de/hifi/index.htm?/hifi/keramix.htm
However the price of 600 euro (or almost 800 USdollar) for two tweeters is a bit much for me now
As said, the woofer needs care with regard to internal reflections en the resonance around 4KHz (I believe) need to be taken care of when designing your own.
Regards
Gerben
I build, and listen to, the Ceram which is a design by Udo Wohlgemuth and was published in the German magazine Klang + Ton a few years ago. It uses the C95T6 and the C23 tweeter
Here’s a link to a vendor
http://www.lautsprechershop.de/hifi/index_en.htm?/hifi/ceram_en.htm
end here’s a link to the website of the designer which has posted my build
http://www.acoustic-design-magazin.de/html/fotogalerie_2.html
Scroll down halfway.
I have build it Avalon style
. I used a fulllrange speaker before (Jordan JX92) which I really liked because I like to ‘sound’of a one point source. I think the Ceram really comes close to a fullranger in this.
The bass from the C96T6 is really really good. Very dynamic en detailed. It’s really controlled, sometimes is just scares me! I believe Lumen white uses a custom version of this speaker in their designs. The design is BR but i believe it can be used in a closed design with the same volume.
I like the filter design because it uses so little components : a series filter with two coils, two caps and one resistor. This leaves a budget to use only high quality components I used Mundorf CFC12 copperfoil coils and Audyn Plus caps with parr. With Vishay 1837 0.1uF.
The tweeter is good and mixes really well with the woofer but it isn’t the last in transparency in my experience.
I would really like to listen to the woofer with the Eton ER4 Air Motion Transformer. A design with this combination is designed by Pure Dynamics in Austria and was tested in the last Klang + Ton.
http://www.lautsprechershop.de/hifi/index.htm?/hifi/keramix.htm
However the price of 600 euro (or almost 800 USdollar) for two tweeters is a bit much for me now
As said, the woofer needs care with regard to internal reflections en the resonance around 4KHz (I believe) need to be taken care of when designing your own.
Regards
Gerben
Eton ER4
Hi Gerben
the ER4 is worth each cent!!
I have built a kit of Udo Wohlgemuth, too. The Minuetta with all Eton chassis. 8/800 for bass and 5/880 for mid and ER4 as tweeter.
The ER4 is the best tweeter I've ever heard. It is very detailed but never bothersome. It need about 50 hours to play than it reaches its best quality.
Listen to it, it's a class on it's own.
Regards
Tolu
Hi Gerben
the ER4 is worth each cent!!
I have built a kit of Udo Wohlgemuth, too. The Minuetta with all Eton chassis. 8/800 for bass and 5/880 for mid and ER4 as tweeter.
The ER4 is the best tweeter I've ever heard. It is very detailed but never bothersome. It need about 50 hours to play than it reaches its best quality.
Listen to it, it's a class on it's own.
Regards
Tolu
filter drawing
anyone who have the filter drawing for the keramix loudspeaker?
http://www.lautsprechershop.de/hifi/index_en.htm?/hifi/ceram_en.htm
thanks
anyone who have the filter drawing for the keramix loudspeaker?
http://www.lautsprechershop.de/hifi/index_en.htm?/hifi/ceram_en.htm
thanks
Hi goofysson
scroll down to last page:
http://www.puredynamics.com/uploads/media/KuT_pure_dynamics_200705.pdf
enjoy.
scroll down to last page:
http://www.puredynamics.com/uploads/media/KuT_pure_dynamics_200705.pdf
enjoy.
Attachments
The Accuton drivers are very revealing and I think they should only be used by people with a lot of experience of loudspeaker design, especially crossover design.
You also have to use best possible amps etc. othervise it´s better to stick to more forgiving drivers.
In my experience I can´t recognize words as "restricted dynamics" , or "lot of distortion". Some say these drivers are inconsitantly made, if so I have been lucky .
I use Volt RV 3243 woofers (actively) C220 in closed "boxes" (pentagonial) 2xC79/channel (in a pentagonial box)and Eton ER4 which I agree is one of the best tweeter and in addition it can be crossed over rather "low".
For crossover design, very small changes in component values can make significant differences thus it´s best not to rush things.
I have tweaked my system for about five years and although sometimes I feel a bit crazy the result has been worth waiting for.
I use many different materials for the boxes and I don´t believe in "sub enclosures not that important" that some expert wrote here. The subs weigh about 200 lbs each and is mass loaded in addition, decoupled from the concrete floor (no spikes for me; I don´t believe in them ) The enclosures for the C220:s weigh about 60 lbs each and for the two C79 the partly lead-in- elastic glue filled "boxes" weigh about the same. At the age of 58 years I think these are my last speakers and yes they are not completly finished yet, but will "soon" be more complete.
For the ER 4 ; don´t use a small enclosure; the usual way "behind" them (they are dipoles) , use a rather long tunnel stuffed with some damping material ( which in turn can reflect certain frequences). It´s much about compromises but if you stretch these as far as possible....
You also have to use best possible amps etc. othervise it´s better to stick to more forgiving drivers.
In my experience I can´t recognize words as "restricted dynamics" , or "lot of distortion". Some say these drivers are inconsitantly made, if so I have been lucky
. I use Volt RV 3243 woofers (actively) C220 in closed "boxes" (pentagonial) 2xC79/channel (in a pentagonial box)and Eton ER4 which I agree is one of the best tweeter and in addition it can be crossed over rather "low".
For crossover design, very small changes in component values can make significant differences thus it´s best not to rush things.
I have tweaked my system for about five years and although sometimes I feel a bit crazy the result has been worth waiting for.
I use many different materials for the boxes and I don´t believe in "sub enclosures not that important" that some expert wrote here. The subs weigh about 200 lbs each and is mass loaded in addition, decoupled from the concrete floor (no spikes for me; I don´t believe in them
) The enclosures for the C220:s weigh about 60 lbs each and for the two C79 the partly lead-in- elastic glue filled "boxes" weigh about the same. At the age of 58 years I think these are my last speakers and yes they are not completly finished yet, but will "soon" be more complete. For the ER 4 ; don´t use a small enclosure; the usual way "behind" them (they are dipoles) , use a rather long tunnel stuffed with some damping material ( which in turn can reflect certain frequences). It´s much about compromises but if you stretch these as far as possible....
Hi golden m.
your speaker system sounds really interesting.
Are you willing to provide some more information, pics ?
I am not in love with a project now
goofysson just asked for some Keramix drawings.
That one is sold in Germany / Austria as Kit which makes
life easier for less experencied people.
cheers
your speaker system sounds really interesting.
Are you willing to provide some more information, pics ?
I am not in love with a project now
goofysson just asked for some Keramix drawings.
That one is sold in Germany / Austria as Kit which makes
life easier for less experencied people.
cheers
I have to get a camera....And think about any conclusions that can be made.
There has been a tendency to tweak and have this week´s or month´s sound, but the trend has been towards improvments (confirmed by people I trust).
I think I haven´t started this project if I had realized how time consuming it was going to be. Some people jump into a new project as soon as they have finished the current one. But I will not do it.
There has been a tendency to tweak and have this week´s or month´s sound, but the trend has been towards improvments (confirmed by people I trust).
I think I haven´t started this project if I had realized how time consuming it was going to be. Some people jump into a new project as soon as they have finished the current one. But I will not do it.
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