I don't recall their name, but there's a speaker company in existance that uses TAD drivers in a two-way configuration. The high frequency compression driver is just bolted to the top of the woofer cabinet facing the world with no horn attached.
Obviously, the horn artifacts would be missing, but does that mean it would sound better? In such a configuration, I wonder about efficiency loss, dispersion weirdness, and frequency response anomolies.
So I'm wondering, have any of you ever listened to a compression driver without the horn?
Obviously, the horn artifacts would be missing, but does that mean it would sound better? In such a configuration, I wonder about efficiency loss, dispersion weirdness, and frequency response anomolies.
So I'm wondering, have any of you ever listened to a compression driver without the horn?
Huh?! Typical compression drivers (including the 4001) are BP4 alignments designed for mids and treble with the gain BW defined by the horn's acoustic loading. Since this one has a very short built-in one, it's strictly a super tweeter without any horn extension to 'unlock' some more of its usable BW.
I am not sure what the response is for the Tad with its Be diaphram or where the mass break point is It would be interesting to see what one measured like and how much of a CD type compensation would be needed for flat response to say 1.5-2K which is probably as high as they take the woofer. The polar response must be a mess at the crossover point.
Rob
Rob
Indeed! I just assumed the main driver was a really wide BW one. This doesn't seem viable unless XO'd out at the ragged edge of the 1601's break-up modes and even then I imagine it would be marginal, but surely we're missing something. I mean they can't afford to replace such an expensive diaphragm under warranty with any sort of regularity.
One thing's for sure though, their marketing hype about the 4001's response is misleading at best since the sharp exit transition causes plenty of well known problems.
One thing's for sure though, their marketing hype about the 4001's response is misleading at best since the sharp exit transition causes plenty of well known problems.
GM said:
I'd bet that the midbass driver is run with out a lowpass filter. Looking over the website you'll note that the loudspeaker *must* be listened to on-axis.. While it likely is important for the top octave of the compression driver, its far more important for the midbass driver and anything approaching linearity. I'd expect a natural sp-loss starting around anywhere from 1.5 to 3 kHz.. (with the safer bet being closer to 1.5 kHz).. Based on that conjecture I wouldn't be surprised to see a 4th order electrical (LR) around 2.2-2.5 kHz for the compression driver.
I also wouldn't be at all surprised if they didn't care about freq.s above 12 kHz.
Selenium D205Ti naked ,connected as helper tweet via 1uF .....
when I just tape-mounted cheap Eminence APT80 plastic horns in front of them , sound is less splashy and integration with main drivers is better .
no measuring,just listening
solution with nice round wood plate,with radius-ed hole seems promising ; probably just edge diffraction on mouth exit is in case when driver is naked
when I just tape-mounted cheap Eminence APT80 plastic horns in front of them , sound is less splashy and integration with main drivers is better .
no measuring,just listening
solution with nice round wood plate,with radius-ed hole seems promising ; probably just edge diffraction on mouth exit is in case when driver is naked
I have used some old jbl2420 drivers myself this way. The older jbl alnico drivers are the ancesters of the TAD line of drivers. All I can say is that it works pretty good with the right eq. this way you will have a tweeter with very wide dispersion. I have used them from 3kHz upwards and it sounded much better then on some crappy horns I had lying around. It could use a supertweeter though, although I usually don't care much about anything above 15kHz it just misses that sparkle on top but at the bottom it has excellent body and drive.
Most tweeter that are trying to reach 30, 40 kHz ore even 20 with a lot of trouble sound very thin and nervous. Better something that does the job right up till 15 kHz.
Also tried it with my BMS 4540ND drivers and that didn't work at all, sounded very bad without horn/waveguide loading.
I would like to hear their speaker though, the story behind the design is very interesting, to create a highly musical loudspeaker with good detail, dynamics but also some ghettoblaster fun in it, in other words, lively and just playing music in a enjoyable way. sounds more interesting to me then most of the high end bladibla out there
Most tweeter that are trying to reach 30, 40 kHz ore even 20 with a lot of trouble sound very thin and nervous. Better something that does the job right up till 15 kHz.
Also tried it with my BMS 4540ND drivers and that didn't work at all, sounded very bad without horn/waveguide loading.
I would like to hear their speaker though, the story behind the design is very interesting, to create a highly musical loudspeaker with good detail, dynamics but also some ghettoblaster fun in it, in other words, lively and just playing music in a enjoyable way. sounds more interesting to me then most of the high end bladibla out there
Right, the concept is fun. Something missing in too many speakers. I have some big fun 2-ways at work that have a dished out mid because of the wide under-lap. Pretty pleasant and fun to listen to.
Sjef's experiences with the JBL drivers is interesting. Guess it will depend a lot on the driver and throat. Maybe the TADs can handle it?
I'll also be willing to bet the 15" is run wide open, or with the tiniest of inductors.
Sjef's experiences with the JBL drivers is interesting. Guess it will depend a lot on the driver and throat. Maybe the TADs can handle it?
I'll also be willing to bet the 15" is run wide open, or with the tiniest of inductors.
when yuo read carefully trough the concept explanation on their website you will find a statement that the compression drivers are running at about half the crossover point of a typical 25mm dome tweeter so that will be somewhere between 1 and 1,5 kHz. they also state that their crossover excist from only four components but that could be any configuration like 12/12db/oct, 6/18db/oct, 6/6db/oct with padding resistors, seriesfilters etc etc, we can only guess.
compression driver, pipe, horn?
I am trying a though experiment over here and it is driving me nutso. I am going to end up getting parts and trying this to see what happens.
The parts:
[1] A standard PA type compression driver that is normally threaded onto a horn using a 1" threaded pipe
[2] A horn for the driver above
[3] a length of 1" pipe
Basically the puzzle is this:
If a horn and compression driver are separated and then a pipe is place in between them, what happens to the sound?
Let's say the the pipe mates perfectly with the throat of the compression driver. Screw it on with a coupler or something, but the inside diameter is seamless. The pipe just extends the throat.
The pipe then screws into the horn, as if it were the throat of the compression driver.
How is the sound affected?
Ordinarily, the resonance of a pipe (transmission line, waveguide) is a function of what is happening at the ends, primarily impedance mismatches that cause the ends to become a reflective "mass on a spring."
Here, one end matches the throat of the driver perfectly, and the other end mates with the horn just as the driver would have.
So what happens?
I am trying a though experiment over here and it is driving me nutso. I am going to end up getting parts and trying this to see what happens.
The parts:
[1] A standard PA type compression driver that is normally threaded onto a horn using a 1" threaded pipe
[2] A horn for the driver above
[3] a length of 1" pipe
Basically the puzzle is this:
If a horn and compression driver are separated and then a pipe is place in between them, what happens to the sound?
Let's say the the pipe mates perfectly with the throat of the compression driver. Screw it on with a coupler or something, but the inside diameter is seamless. The pipe just extends the throat.
The pipe then screws into the horn, as if it were the throat of the compression driver.
How is the sound affected?
Ordinarily, the resonance of a pipe (transmission line, waveguide) is a function of what is happening at the ends, primarily impedance mismatches that cause the ends to become a reflective "mass on a spring."
Here, one end matches the throat of the driver perfectly, and the other end mates with the horn just as the driver would have.
So what happens?
Hi
Some thoughts.
You can’t get rid of all the horn as acoustically it begins at the driver surface or smallest part of the phase plugs pathway.
A one inch exit driver’s exit is already so large it is effecting the directivity of the radiated energy at 20KHz with all the electro acoustic transformation stopping well inside.
It is a fact (I think) that all simple radiators, operating below the frequency that there own dimensions produce directivity, are dependent on the external conditions (like a baffle board) that act as the waveguide when confining the radiation angle to less than 360 degrees.
The paradox is that one is in the range where a drivers dimensions produce directivity, it is usually then frequency / angle dependant which is undesirable.
When a driver / source is small enough not to have directly, it maximizes the energy sprayed everywhere outside the listening zone which is undesirable.
Since you are already interested in horns (which are more difficult to play with but can offer some cool benefits) and since you can’t actually avoid dealing with the effects of waveguides even when you have a little dome or cone on a flat baffle, you might as well grab the bull by the pointy but less odiferous end and go horn.
There is also a lot of “horn lore” out there the best performance of all is not with “boutique” or “antique” parts but the best part for the job.
To do a proper job, you must be able to measure and modify and measure again.
You will learn what does what and remember a good computer model’s prediction is the next best thing to proper measurements of the real thing, but proper measurements trump the computer model.
Best,
Tom Danley
Some thoughts.
You can’t get rid of all the horn as acoustically it begins at the driver surface or smallest part of the phase plugs pathway.
A one inch exit driver’s exit is already so large it is effecting the directivity of the radiated energy at 20KHz with all the electro acoustic transformation stopping well inside.
It is a fact (I think) that all simple radiators, operating below the frequency that there own dimensions produce directivity, are dependent on the external conditions (like a baffle board) that act as the waveguide when confining the radiation angle to less than 360 degrees.
The paradox is that one is in the range where a drivers dimensions produce directivity, it is usually then frequency / angle dependant which is undesirable.
When a driver / source is small enough not to have directly, it maximizes the energy sprayed everywhere outside the listening zone which is undesirable.
Since you are already interested in horns (which are more difficult to play with but can offer some cool benefits) and since you can’t actually avoid dealing with the effects of waveguides even when you have a little dome or cone on a flat baffle, you might as well grab the bull by the pointy but less odiferous end and go horn.
There is also a lot of “horn lore” out there the best performance of all is not with “boutique” or “antique” parts but the best part for the job.
To do a proper job, you must be able to measure and modify and measure again.
You will learn what does what and remember a good computer model’s prediction is the next best thing to proper measurements of the real thing, but proper measurements trump the computer model.
Best,
Tom Danley
Holey Moley!
Wow! I feel like I just called the White House and got put through to the president! Did I end up on some "only experts can answer this guy" list or something?
Tom, Your points are well taken. Interesting point that even a baffle board is really a special case of a horn -- a cone with a width of 180 degrees!
Also that the horn really starts at the source point: the driver or the minimum aperture at the throat/phase plug. I had been thinking more in terms of the throat delivering a planar compression wave and that simply extending this length with a transmission line / waveguide may possibly have no major effect.
And yep. Horns are a blast. Especially when they get innovative. I don't really play with the directionality aspects too much, focusing more on the impedance matching / transformer aspects.
Horn for an air-loaded underwater speaker? Fun.
Horn for a ribbon tweeter? Fun stuff.
Thanks guys!
Wow! I feel like I just called the White House and got put through to the president! Did I end up on some "only experts can answer this guy" list or something?
Well, that's the question. The tube has only one variable dimension--the length. How does extending the throat affect the horn?
Tom, Your points are well taken. Interesting point that even a baffle board is really a special case of a horn -- a cone with a width of 180 degrees!
Also that the horn really starts at the source point: the driver or the minimum aperture at the throat/phase plug. I had been thinking more in terms of the throat delivering a planar compression wave and that simply extending this length with a transmission line / waveguide may possibly have no major effect.
And yep. Horns are a blast. Especially when they get innovative. I don't really play with the directionality aspects too much, focusing more on the impedance matching / transformer aspects.
Horn for an air-loaded underwater speaker? Fun.
Horn for a ribbon tweeter? Fun stuff.
Thanks guys!
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