Hello
I am a new member here. I write from Poland , and I want to apologise for my English
I want to ask if anyone tried to built loudspeaker like in title. Previously I wanted to built something with: 8935a and 9950-20, but i heard opinions that it wouldn't be uch good at low frequencies. As in know h1224 is much better. The only problem is crossover. I found something like i attachment.
What do you think about my project? These two drivers are from different hm... "families" and i wonder if it is good to mix them.
I am a new member here. I write from Poland , and I want to apologise for my English
I want to ask if anyone tried to built loudspeaker like in title. Previously I wanted to built something with: 8935a and 9950-20, but i heard opinions that it wouldn't be uch good at low frequencies. As in know h1224 is much better. The only problem is crossover. I found something like i attachment.
What do you think about my project? These two drivers are from different hm... "families"
and i wonder if it is good to mix them.Attachments
I'm not familiar with the Usher 8935a, are you sure you have the correct part number? If you're referring to the 8945A or 8945P, they are indeed very very good midranges (tested by Zaph to have exorbitantly low non-linear distortion, comparable to Scan-Speak Revelator) as well as woofers and have a good deal of xmax (10mm 1-way I believe)
The 8935A doesn't seem to be readily available to DIYers, but it IS a listed product at Usher's website, as well as used in their own commercial V-series speakers.
http://www.usheraudio.com/driver-8935A.html
http://www.usheraudio.com/driver-8935A.html
John "Zaph" Krutke has a similar project detailed on his website. It utilises the same H1224 midwoofer but the tweeter in John's project is a Seas 27TBFCG.
Here's a link.
http://www.zaphaudio.com/audio-speaker17.html
Here's a link.
http://www.zaphaudio.com/audio-speaker17.html
In Poland it is avaiable:
http://www.akkus.com.pl/index.php?grupa=gl_szczegoly&firma=usher&model=8935A&lang=pl&dh=dt
It costs about 80$
I'm searching a good tweeter for h1224. I looked at many pages with this speaker. It is almost always mixed with another seas tweeters.
I attached project with ss9500 with is very dood tweeter - much better than seas prestige products - I think. Usher 9950-20 is almost copy of ss9500 and costs half a price of scan.
I wonder if someone could simulate crossover for h1224 and usher 9950-20. Do you think that it could be a good idea? Just better than seas tweeters..
http://www.akkus.com.pl/index.php?grupa=gl_szczegoly&firma=usher&model=8935A&lang=pl&dh=dt
It costs about 80$
I'm searching a good tweeter for h1224. I looked at many pages with this speaker. It is almost always mixed with another seas tweeters.
I attached project with ss9500 with is very dood tweeter - much better than seas prestige products - I think. Usher 9950-20 is almost copy of ss9500 and costs half a price of scan.
I wonder if someone could simulate crossover for h1224 and usher 9950-20. Do you think that it could be a good idea? Just better than seas tweeters..
I'm not sure the 9950-20 is better than the 27TBFCG.
To be honest, the 27TBFC/G has top-tier linear distortion AND non-linear distortion characteristics.
Second, simulating is crossover is one thing, but loudspeaker design is an iterative process that requires meaurements, simulating, building, listening, over and over again. It takes weeks, months if not years to "finalise" a crossover. And a loudspeaker is only good as the crossover, IMHO.
If you're working with the L18RNX/P, Zaph's SEAS All Metal System is a winner IMHO.
To be honest, the 27TBFC/G has top-tier linear distortion AND non-linear distortion characteristics.
Second, simulating is crossover is one thing, but loudspeaker design is an iterative process that requires meaurements, simulating, building, listening, over and over again. It takes weeks, months if not years to "finalise" a crossover. And a loudspeaker is only good as the crossover, IMHO.
If you're working with the L18RNX/P, Zaph's SEAS All Metal System is a winner IMHO.
But that Seas tweeter has specific "metallic sound". I'd rather choose something softer. I've heard very good opinions about 9950. It's a clone of SS9500 and I think it is the best recomendation.
Maybe usher 9950 is not popular. If someone could help me to compare some 2 projects with two tweeter options: ss9500 and usher 9950, I would be very grateful. We could transfer ewentual diferences to the crossover from my first post.
Maybe usher 9950 is not popular. If someone could help me to compare some 2 projects with two tweeter options: ss9500 and usher 9950, I would be very grateful. We could transfer ewentual diferences to the crossover from my first post.
Mor den Siur said:
I was also worried bout that since I am a little more sensitive to high frequencies then most people. I've asked around and exchanged private messages with people who built the Zaph L18 and they assure me it silky smooth. Zaph even gives you options in his design to tone down the higher frequency.
Unfortunately I can't speak from personal experience as I decided to not build the L18 for now and wait for Zaph's new and hopefully soon to be published ER18 design. I don't know which will be better ER18 or L18 design but I'm sure Zaph will make some comparisons and comment about it.
Question: Did you listen to the Seas 27TBFC/G (H1212) and find it too metallic?
Peter
PS: according to Zaph's tests the Usher 8945 (A or P) is probably better then the Seas L18 (H1224)
http://zaphaudio.com/6.5test/compare.html
Mor den Siur,
Your thread is very interesting to me. You are very much like me several months ago. I wanted to build the best-sounding, but cost-effective small 2-way speakers. So, I did a lot of research on drivers, crossover design, etc.
Have you closely read the loudspeaker testing websites of John Zaph Krutke (www.zaphaudio.com) and Mark Krawiec (www.markk.claub.net/)? They are very serious speaker DIYers who want to THoroughly test every driver (and more) they use in their projects. They are really great contributors to speaker DIY community. Zaph's tests are easy to read and Mark's tests are very thorough.
They tested every driver we're talking about in this thread. Zaph tested L18, Usher 8945P/A, SS9500, 27TDFC, and 27TBFC/G. Mark also tested these drivers and the Usher 9950.
I can give you a summary of their tests of these drivers because I read them so many times! Don't choose drivers simply based on your speculations, intuition, or others' opinions. Real data to consider are available for you!
In sum, first, SS9500 and Usher 9950 are certainly good tweeters. They're old time favorites. But according to Zaph and Mark's tests, they are not necessarily better than the less expensive Seas standards. This is why the Seas standard tweeters are so popular. These tweeters are real testing champions. Does the 27TBFC/G sound metallic? I think people who state so may like sound colored with distortions. With respect to linear and nonlinear distortions, the 27TBFC/G is comparable to any tweeters in any price range, which both Zaph and Mark agree on. In short, according to my research, under $100 there are four excellent tweeters at this point of time that can be used in a 2-way with a 6.5" midwoofer with a relatively low crossover frequency. They are:
- Seas 27TDFC
- Seas 27TBFC/G
- Dayton RS28A-4
- Peerless HDS 810921
Many people who know how to read data will agree with me. The Dayton is not an option for you since you're in Poland.
As for the 6.5" midwoofer, if the Usher 8945P/A is expensive for you, the next choice should be the new Seas ER18RNX or the Peerless HDS Exclusive. The ER18RNX is certainly the best of Seas Prestige 6.5" woofers according to Zaph's test. Lower distortions thanks to better motor design than others---look closely at Zaph's 6.5" tests (compare harmonic distortion performance of L18, P18, CA18, and ER18). Actually Zaph has been working on Seas ER18RNX / 27TDFC (or 27TBFC/G) 2-way. I also designed a crossover for these drivers though it is preliminary. If you're interested, check out: http://www.geocities.com/woove99/Spkrbldg/Pre_XO_Desings.htm
Peerless HDS Exclusive is also an excellent performer according to Zaph and Mark's tests. But maybe this is more expensive than the Seas in your country?
If you're interested in what I ended up building, visit my website below.
Your thread is very interesting to me. You are very much like me several months ago. I wanted to build the best-sounding, but cost-effective small 2-way speakers. So, I did a lot of research on drivers, crossover design, etc.
Have you closely read the loudspeaker testing websites of John Zaph Krutke (www.zaphaudio.com) and Mark Krawiec (www.markk.claub.net/)? They are very serious speaker DIYers who want to THoroughly test every driver (and more) they use in their projects. They are really great contributors to speaker DIY community. Zaph's tests are easy to read and Mark's tests are very thorough.
They tested every driver we're talking about in this thread. Zaph tested L18, Usher 8945P/A, SS9500, 27TDFC, and 27TBFC/G. Mark also tested these drivers and the Usher 9950.
I can give you a summary of their tests of these drivers because I read them so many times! Don't choose drivers simply based on your speculations, intuition, or others' opinions. Real data to consider are available for you!
In sum, first, SS9500 and Usher 9950 are certainly good tweeters. They're old time favorites. But according to Zaph and Mark's tests, they are not necessarily better than the less expensive Seas standards. This is why the Seas standard tweeters are so popular. These tweeters are real testing champions. Does the 27TBFC/G sound metallic? I think people who state so may like sound colored with distortions. With respect to linear and nonlinear distortions, the 27TBFC/G is comparable to any tweeters in any price range, which both Zaph and Mark agree on. In short, according to my research, under $100 there are four excellent tweeters at this point of time that can be used in a 2-way with a 6.5" midwoofer with a relatively low crossover frequency. They are:
- Seas 27TDFC
- Seas 27TBFC/G
- Dayton RS28A-4
- Peerless HDS 810921
Many people who know how to read data will agree with me. The Dayton is not an option for you since you're in Poland.
As for the 6.5" midwoofer, if the Usher 8945P/A is expensive for you, the next choice should be the new Seas ER18RNX or the Peerless HDS Exclusive. The ER18RNX is certainly the best of Seas Prestige 6.5" woofers according to Zaph's test. Lower distortions thanks to better motor design than others---look closely at Zaph's 6.5" tests (compare harmonic distortion performance of L18, P18, CA18, and ER18). Actually Zaph has been working on Seas ER18RNX / 27TDFC (or 27TBFC/G) 2-way. I also designed a crossover for these drivers though it is preliminary. If you're interested, check out: http://www.geocities.com/woove99/Spkrbldg/Pre_XO_Desings.htm
Peerless HDS Exclusive is also an excellent performer according to Zaph and Mark's tests. But maybe this is more expensive than the Seas in your country?
If you're interested in what I ended up building, visit my website below.
Jay - thanks for your reply.
It's a great pleasure to exchange opinions with peple who have desire and abilities to help other people.
By now I was determinated to use L18 and 27tbfcg - idea with using usher was opportunity inspirated by good opinion about that tweerer and fear about 27tbfcg specific sound.
After lots of researches I choosed Seas drivers. I don't have possibility to built my own XO so I had to look for finished one.
Maybe I shouldn't write this, but after I choosed L18 it was so hard to change my opinion also because of its great look - I think you agree with me
As I red somewhere ER18rnx has Faraday ring - one of differences between Excel and Prestige series. I've met opinion that lack of this thing is cause of 5% worse performance of Prestige than Excel. By the time of ER18 arrived.
I decided to wait for Zaph's new project and I hope comparison to his All Metal System. Well known projects are better option than theoretical XO L18-9950.
Everything will be judged between those two projects I think.
It is very good point to make a little discusion
It's a great pleasure to exchange opinions with peple who have desire and abilities to help other people.
By now I was determinated to use L18 and 27tbfcg - idea with using usher was opportunity inspirated by good opinion about that tweerer and fear about 27tbfcg specific sound.
After lots of researches I choosed Seas drivers. I don't have possibility to built my own XO so I had to look for finished one.
Maybe I shouldn't write this, but after I choosed L18 it was so hard to change my opinion also because of its great look - I think you agree with me
As I red somewhere ER18rnx has Faraday ring - one of differences between Excel and Prestige series. I've met opinion that lack of this thing is cause of 5% worse performance of Prestige than Excel. By the time of ER18 arrived.
I decided to wait for Zaph's new project and I hope comparison to his All Metal System. Well known projects are better option than theoretical XO L18-9950.
Everything will be judged between those two projects I think.
It is very good point to make a little discusion
Feyz said:
I agree, Feyz. One reason is that distortion patterns of different drivers are all unique, not uniform. For example, people may prefer low third order products at the cost of a bit high second order ones. Or some people may think of low harmonic distortions above 5 kHz to be important though they may not be so much audible. Some people may even like distortions (e.g., ribbon tweeters).
The Usher 9950 must be a decent performer. Mark Krawiec performed thorough tests of the 9950, SS 9300, 9500, and 9700. According to his test, a little worse side of these tweeters than the Seas standards, the Peerless HDS 810921, or the Dayton RS28A is distortion performance under 2 kHz. So, if one wants to use a xo point below 2 kHz in a 2-way design, there seem to be better choices than the 9950 or the SS9700.
I am surprise you think H1224-08 is better than Usher Audio 8935A. Mid bass speakers with phase corrector - in really it is not phase corrector only acoustic pressure normalizer - in a center of speaker can't push low frequencies !!!! Do not have flat frequency response.
High frequencies are stronger !!! and this cone disturbing sound go wide. If you have gap between membrane and this " phase corrector " you have wheeze , whack . The biggest air pressure of cone membrane is exactly i center!!! Can you push a water in a big tank by cone if on the end of cone you have whole !!!!!!! I dont like if center cap is concave because sound dissipation is spot but air pressure is bigger on speaker axis only. Sound Engineers made the biggest mistake thinking center of cone speaker doesn't produce a sound !!!!!! But like the speaker looks like Jet plane engine!
The classic mid woofers with classic convex cap in a middle are the best !!!!
Dynaudio woofers will sound better if they could use classic center cap
instead of square cut-out edge ones. Air pressure problem behind a cap? It is not problem but if you like make a hole in a magnet but it cost more than glue cone in the center of speaker.
I heard B&W Nautilus this top one shell 4 way with flat midrange and I dont understand why people stooped produce it when it can make live sounding space !!!!!!!!! This part of frequency response and musicians location was amazing like on flat electrostatic or planar speakers .
High frequencies are stronger !!! and this cone disturbing sound go wide. If you have gap between membrane and this " phase corrector " you have wheeze , whack . The biggest air pressure of cone membrane is exactly i center!!! Can you push a water in a big tank by cone if on the end of cone you have whole !!!!!!! I dont like if center cap is concave because sound dissipation is spot but air pressure is bigger on speaker axis only. Sound Engineers made the biggest mistake thinking center of cone speaker doesn't produce a sound !!!!!! But like the speaker looks like Jet plane engine!
The classic mid woofers with classic convex cap in a middle are the best !!!!
Dynaudio woofers will sound better if they could use classic center cap
instead of square cut-out edge ones. Air pressure problem behind a cap? It is not problem but if you like make a hole in a magnet but it cost more than glue cone in the center of speaker.
I heard B&W Nautilus this top one shell 4 way with flat midrange and I dont understand why people stooped produce it when it can make live sounding space !!!!!!!!! This part of frequency response and musicians location was amazing like on flat electrostatic or planar speakers .
I'm using the L18 but with a 22TAF/G.
I have a pair of 27TBFC/Gs but the subjective quality is quite poor compared to other tweeters I've used. I really couldn't listen to them. Cymbals sound quite flat, lacking energy and strings have an un-natural wirey sound. Depth and ambience also seem muted.
The 22TAF/G is a different matter. The sound is very natural and has no edginess or treble emphasis - it's one of those tweeters which can disappear. It is said they are unable to work too low, but with the right crossover design they seem fine. Mine crossover at 1.8k without any difficulty.
One thing I did find with the L18 is the notch filter as used in other designs will remove the main peak, but the peaks above are audible... I use an additional notch centered between the two upper peaks; the result is an utterly convincing vocal performance with exceptional clarity and lack of treble 'artifacts'.
I have a pair of 27TBFC/Gs but the subjective quality is quite poor compared to other tweeters I've used. I really couldn't listen to them. Cymbals sound quite flat, lacking energy and strings have an un-natural wirey sound. Depth and ambience also seem muted.
The 22TAF/G is a different matter. The sound is very natural and has no edginess or treble emphasis - it's one of those tweeters which can disappear. It is said they are unable to work too low, but with the right crossover design they seem fine. Mine crossover at 1.8k without any difficulty.
One thing I did find with the L18 is the notch filter as used in other designs will remove the main peak, but the peaks above are audible... I use an additional notch centered between the two upper peaks; the result is an utterly convincing vocal performance with exceptional clarity and lack of treble 'artifacts'.
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