Hello all,
Well, while I am _very_ happy with the A126 in my livingroom there is this one little thing that bugs me: For understandable reasons, it just falters on large scale/dynamic symphonic music -- there's only that much the lil 4 incher can do at one time and only that much dynamic range to go around.
Since I'm mostly listening to classical (baroque, but still...) that is a bit of an issue
So, out of curiosity, I've started looking for some project / setup that can handle that. Disappointingly (but unsurprisingly) I didn't get too far.
So, the question is: Is there such an all-out, price-no-object arrangement that can deliver that (revealing, Dynamic, fast, high eff, etc) ? I'm thinking PHY-HP / Fertin / Supravox / Lowther / etc maybe with woofers + ribbons/supertweeters. Whatever it takes: size, price, etc. (well, within reason, that is)
Any suggestion for an FR-based setup that can handle _very_ large/dynamic symphonics/operas (e.g. Wagner Ring, Mahler 5th, Orff's Carmina Burana, etc ) -- say from 200 Hz up -- by giving a rock solid 1st row symphonic hall presentation but keep things in proper tone, place and size ? If yes, which element / setup ?
How about putting an high-end FR + fast woofer on an OB (even going bi-amping) ?
Sorry if this is a bit unprecise, I'm just out for future ideas to explore...
TIA
Florian
P.S. There is a 2 yr old thread on this subject, and not very useful info: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=61487
Well, while I am _very_ happy with the A126 in my livingroom there is this one little thing that bugs me: For understandable reasons, it just falters on large scale/dynamic symphonic music -- there's only that much the lil 4 incher can do at one time and only that much dynamic range to go around.
Since I'm mostly listening to classical (baroque, but still...) that is a bit of an issue
So, out of curiosity, I've started looking for some project / setup that can handle that. Disappointingly (but unsurprisingly) I didn't get too far.
So, the question is: Is there such an all-out, price-no-object arrangement that can deliver that (revealing, Dynamic, fast, high eff, etc) ? I'm thinking PHY-HP / Fertin / Supravox / Lowther / etc maybe with woofers + ribbons/supertweeters. Whatever it takes: size, price, etc. (well, within reason, that is
)Any suggestion for an FR-based setup that can handle _very_ large/dynamic symphonics/operas (e.g. Wagner Ring, Mahler 5th, Orff's Carmina Burana, etc ) -- say from 200 Hz up -- by giving a rock solid 1st row symphonic hall presentation but keep things in proper tone, place and size ? If yes, which element / setup ?
How about putting an high-end FR + fast woofer on an OB (even going bi-amping) ?
Sorry if this is a bit unprecise, I'm just out for future ideas to explore...
TIA
Florian
P.S. There is a 2 yr old thread on this subject, and not very useful info: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=61487
How far are you willing to go?
As close as to virtual as you can get in recreation of a recorded medium IMHO is a 3-4 way horn system.
I never intended the A126 to achieve that goal.
I realize you like the Gallo, but have you ever heard an Altec Vott? If an all out design for maximum performance is your desire then be perpared to spend a fairly large amount of money and time if its DIY. Otherwise, spend a lot of $.
Dynamics is a function of speed or the ability to move a mass as close to a ever changing sine wave as possible. To accomplish this action requires segmenting portions of the FR to individual drivers designed for a specific range of the FR. Horns help as they amplify a given narrow range.
The whole point of FR single drivers is image and image position. You have to find the sound that you want and some will not find it in a single driver.
Is there such an all-out, price-no-object arrangement that can deliver that (revealing, Dynamic, fast, high eff, etc) ? I'm thinking PHY-HP / Fertin / Supravox / Lowther / etc maybe with woofers + ribbons/supertweeters. Whatever it takes: size, price, etc. (well, within reason, that is )
Within reason and price is no object is a contradiction. As close as a single driver is going to get is as mentioned above. I truly wish i had more time to devote to audio, but i have around 5 projects in un-related fields going on at the same time. I ran some rough sims on the horn app of the BIB (and its a horn) and i can see a great deal of potential. I think your assumption that a 4" driver can perform as well as a multi is incorrect. A larger driver can deliver the dynamics to a greater degree, but it requires a greater size horn.
You probably would have liked the Dallas more than the A126 or even the Fostex 208 design with a horn tweet.
ron
As close as to virtual as you can get in recreation of a recorded medium IMHO is a 3-4 way horn system.
I never intended the A126 to achieve that goal.
I realize you like the Gallo, but have you ever heard an Altec Vott? If an all out design for maximum performance is your desire then be perpared to spend a fairly large amount of money and time if its DIY. Otherwise, spend a lot of $.
Dynamics is a function of speed or the ability to move a mass as close to a ever changing sine wave as possible. To accomplish this action requires segmenting portions of the FR to individual drivers designed for a specific range of the FR. Horns help as they amplify a given narrow range.
The whole point of FR single drivers is image and image position. You have to find the sound that you want and some will not find it in a single driver.
Is there such an all-out, price-no-object arrangement that can deliver that (revealing, Dynamic, fast, high eff, etc) ? I'm thinking PHY-HP / Fertin / Supravox / Lowther / etc maybe with woofers + ribbons/supertweeters. Whatever it takes: size, price, etc. (well, within reason, that is )
Within reason and price is no object is a contradiction. As close as a single driver is going to get is as mentioned above. I truly wish i had more time to devote to audio, but i have around 5 projects in un-related fields going on at the same time. I ran some rough sims on the horn app of the BIB (and its a horn) and i can see a great deal of potential. I think your assumption that a 4" driver can perform as well as a multi is incorrect. A larger driver can deliver the dynamics to a greater degree, but it requires a greater size horn.
You probably would have liked the Dallas more than the A126 or even the Fostex 208 design with a horn tweet.
ron
A quote from one of my tech articles:
Lets define dynamics:
In dynamic range its defined by the ability to resolve a low level signal with a higher level signal, This means that at two different energys it must be able to clearly define the signal. Resolution comes with frequency. The ability to resolve two different reflectors in close proximity is a function of the frequency and size of the reflectors and the transducer size.(Ultrasonics talking here). Resolution is a matter of speed or the ability to convey the electrical sine wave to mechanical action as the electromechanical energy transfer efficency is the basis for the time it requires the conversion. So lower Qts drivers , which have a higher efficency, and horns which convert the energy at a greater rate from electrical to mechanical have an inherent higher degree of dynamics. Either the less mass, or the greater the energy or the more efficent conversion of the mass /energy relationship is a basis for dynamics
End result: If you want the highest resolution you will design around the highest efficency of conversion of the electrical signal to mechanical energy or add more electrical energy.
ron
Last
Lets define dynamics:
In dynamic range its defined by the ability to resolve a low level signal with a higher level signal, This means that at two different energys it must be able to clearly define the signal. Resolution comes with frequency. The ability to resolve two different reflectors in close proximity is a function of the frequency and size of the reflectors and the transducer size.(Ultrasonics talking here). Resolution is a matter of speed or the ability to convey the electrical sine wave to mechanical action as the electromechanical energy transfer efficency is the basis for the time it requires the conversion. So lower Qts drivers , which have a higher efficency, and horns which convert the energy at a greater rate from electrical to mechanical have an inherent higher degree of dynamics. Either the less mass, or the greater the energy or the more efficent conversion of the mass /energy relationship is a basis for dynamics
End result: If you want the highest resolution you will design around the highest efficency of conversion of the electrical signal to mechanical energy or add more electrical energy.
ron
Last
http://www.bd-design.nl/
for DIY check out the Oris or the Quasar depending if you like OB or horns. This guy gets his own woofers made but the 8 inch fullrange drivers can be Lowther, AER, or even Fostex.
I have heard the singular from here with AER Mk1 Drivers and they blew me away, then again I'm new to high end.
If you just want something beautiful and ready built, cost no object then check out the Swings. Funky and probably the only in your face front loaded horn you can expect your spouse to like.
for DIY check out the Oris or the Quasar depending if you like OB or horns. This guy gets his own woofers made but the 8 inch fullrange drivers can be Lowther, AER, or even Fostex.
I have heard the singular from here with AER Mk1 Drivers and they blew me away, then again I'm new to high end.
If you just want something beautiful and ready built, cost no object then check out the Swings. Funky and probably the only in your face front loaded horn you can expect your spouse to like.
Well if i was in the market and i wanted to design/build a no holds barred type system then it still would be a 3-4 way horn system.
Someday when i retire it may become a possibility, but at present i just design for normal applications. There are a lot of ppl out there that have no reference and still think a Bxxe system is the ultimate. I would never steal money based on hype, but i am honest.
And neither would i claim to the "worlds best horns" ....there are limits.
You would probably find the A166 or the dallas more to your liking than the A126 simply to the greater dynamic range.
ron
Someday when i retire it may become a possibility, but at present i just design for normal applications. There are a lot of ppl out there that have no reference and still think a Bxxe system is the ultimate. I would never steal money based on hype, but i am honest.
And neither would i claim to the "worlds best horns" ....there are limits.
You would probably find the A166 or the dallas more to your liking than the A126 simply to the greater dynamic range.
ron
ronc said:
Ron,
Thanks for the input.
Well -- as I said in the beginning -- atm I still don't have my bearings straight and haven't this thought through (yet). Hence my sloppy post.
What I meant with "cost no object but within reason" was a high end design where the _value_ is clearly identifiable in the cost. The opposite of that would be e.g. an (better left unamed) bottom ported Fostex enclosure with a supertweeter on top that cost 4k or -- worse -- a BLH for a FE108E Sigma that costs 3.7k. You know what I mean.
In that respect -- while I haven't heard Bert D's designs -- 20k Euros for a 2-way front loaded horn (Swing) is way off what I was thinking of.
Which, to be more precise, was smth in the 3k -- 5k range for a DIY project.
If that was is to be a multi-way, well so be it. I never for a single moment considered achieving that with a single driver, much less with a 4''. They do what they do best and I accept in a second.
OTOH I am still at odds wrt relating the design goal of high resolution with lower Qts drivers. While I can clearly correlate high-end extension with high resolution, I'm not so sure about the low Qts. I guess I'll have to dig a bit deeper into John K material on that first...
Ummm... it says "Full Range" on the top here!
That usually means one driver, no?
Once you are off into multi way systems, then you're just talking about speakers in general. Wrong place...
There is only one single answer for a real single driver full range system that can deal with complex music: Electrostatic Loudspeaker.
The max level/dynamic capability will depend on two things; the size of the speaker, and the power of the amp driving the speaker.
Now if you are talking high-efficiency speakers only, again, different place for that...
Personally I have some full range ESLs and I also have a very extraordinary horn based system, wherein the horn covers <300Hz to >10kHz FLAT without EQ, midbass with a brickwall filter below 300Hz is a 15" and then below it's natural cut off, I use a pair of my Quadripole subs... so technically a 3-way, and if you added a "super tweeter" for "air" then it is a 4 way. However, the key is to keep the maximal range in the middle coming from a single driver, the wider that range is (the minimum being 300 - 3000Hz.) the better, imho.
_-_-bear
That usually means one driver, no?
Once you are off into multi way systems, then you're just talking about speakers in general. Wrong place...
There is only one single answer for a real single driver full range system that can deal with complex music: Electrostatic Loudspeaker.
The max level/dynamic capability will depend on two things; the size of the speaker, and the power of the amp driving the speaker.
Now if you are talking high-efficiency speakers only, again, different place for that...
Personally I have some full range ESLs and I also have a very extraordinary horn based system, wherein the horn covers <300Hz to >10kHz FLAT without EQ, midbass with a brickwall filter below 300Hz is a 15" and then below it's natural cut off, I use a pair of my Quadripole subs... so technically a 3-way, and if you added a "super tweeter" for "air" then it is a 4 way. However, the key is to keep the maximal range in the middle coming from a single driver, the wider that range is (the minimum being 300 - 3000Hz.) the better, imho.
_-_-bear
Now that's a neat setup. I like.
Speaking generally, Ron's 100% correct of course (as usual) -if you want to do dynamics, then an FR driver based system is never going to get near a good multiway (I stress the word good). I love FR drivers, but I've been accused of heresy in the past for stating that my dream setup is a 3 way (or better) Altec VOTT. Oh well.
Sticking closer to FR units, if you want something that can do major dynamic swings, then I'd get the best 15in woofer with plenty of excursion that I could afford (although the cheap Eminence units are ideal for this too) and stick them in a PA style scoop-bin, and XO to something like an FE206E in a sealed or aperiodically vented box, preferably with Dave's phase-plugs mounted, and a good super-tweeter to handle the highs, as the 206 is a bit rough & ready over 12KHz or so. Blumenco has a setup just like this, minus the plugs & tweeters.
That's probably going to be about as good as it gets without going for full-scale horns for the bass-units and 206 (in which case, you'd better be planning on building a new house with a living room about the size of the average ballroom, specifically designed around the system). Even this isn't going to be exactly small -probably around a 2ft square footprint and ~50in tall, assuming the sealed boxes are placed on top of the scoop-bins.
Speaking generally, Ron's 100% correct of course (as usual) -if you want to do dynamics, then an FR driver based system is never going to get near a good multiway (I stress the word good). I love FR drivers, but I've been accused of heresy in the past for stating that my dream setup is a 3 way (or better) Altec VOTT. Oh well.
Sticking closer to FR units, if you want something that can do major dynamic swings, then I'd get the best 15in woofer with plenty of excursion that I could afford (although the cheap Eminence units are ideal for this too) and stick them in a PA style scoop-bin, and XO to something like an FE206E in a sealed or aperiodically vented box, preferably with Dave's phase-plugs mounted, and a good super-tweeter to handle the highs, as the 206 is a bit rough & ready over 12KHz or so. Blumenco has a setup just like this, minus the plugs & tweeters.
That's probably going to be about as good as it gets without going for full-scale horns for the bass-units and 206 (in which case, you'd better be planning on building a new house with a living room about the size of the average ballroom, specifically designed around the system). Even this isn't going to be exactly small -probably around a 2ft square footprint and ~50in tall, assuming the sealed boxes are placed on top of the scoop-bins.
Scott,
Finally an understanding soul mate
As we all know there is no "clear cut" full range. Afterall there is no truely full range single driver. No point in hiding behind the bush or slicing and dicing if a full range means single driver, high effs or not, etc. etc.
Frankly, I was guessing along the lines you mentioned.
My problem is that I still have a hard time being able to "quantify" dynamics (both macro and micro) and the subsequent transparency/immediacy . The only thing I can think of (in terms of driver properties) is high sensitivity, big a$$ magnets/flux and low mass with short excursion. IOW breakneck acceleration. And then translating that in a supportive design to get me 1st row scale, image size/precision and (well..) dyamics while keeping the tonal accuracy of FRs
Putting it differently, the question is along what kind of design lines one should think for achieving that.
One might very well be multi-way horns -- like Ron suggested -- and I will take a closer look at the Oris horns.
Still the challenge seems to be that -- based on my novice observations -- a lot of acoustic power of large orchestrals (and thus macrodynamic requirements) seems to happen in the upper bass / lower midrange two octaves. Smack bang where an XO to a woofer use to lie
Anectdotally that was exactly the problem Bert D. had: Find a woofer that can match the speed of his horns.
Alternatively, with box/dipole designs, finding a woofer that can match a suitable FR.
Getting back to wide-range (better so ?) based designs, I was thinking was smth like the Hawthorne Audio Augie , XOed around 300 Hz (too high ?) to a top quality, fast wide ranger. And a ribbon on top.
What kind of setup...Well, that's where Ron, you and MJK worksheets come into picture
Once again, many thanks to both you and Ron for spending time untangling my ramblings
Cheers,
Florian
Finally an understanding soul mate
As we all know there is no "clear cut" full range. Afterall there is no truely full range single driver. No point in hiding behind the bush or slicing and dicing if a full range means single driver, high effs or not, etc. etc.
Frankly, I was guessing along the lines you mentioned.
My problem is that I still have a hard time being able to "quantify" dynamics (both macro and micro) and the subsequent transparency/immediacy . The only thing I can think of (in terms of driver properties) is high sensitivity, big a$$ magnets/flux and low mass with short excursion. IOW breakneck acceleration. And then translating that in a supportive design to get me 1st row scale, image size/precision and (well..) dyamics while keeping the tonal accuracy of FRs
Putting it differently, the question is along what kind of design lines one should think for achieving that.
One might very well be multi-way horns -- like Ron suggested -- and I will take a closer look at the Oris horns.
Still the challenge seems to be that -- based on my novice observations -- a lot of acoustic power of large orchestrals (and thus macrodynamic requirements) seems to happen in the upper bass / lower midrange two octaves. Smack bang where an XO to a woofer use to lie
Anectdotally that was exactly the problem Bert D. had: Find a woofer that can match the speed of his horns. Alternatively, with box/dipole designs, finding a woofer that can match a suitable FR.
Getting back to wide-range (better so ?) based designs, I was thinking was smth like the Hawthorne Audio Augie , XOed around 300 Hz (too high ?) to a top quality, fast wide ranger. And a ribbon on top.
What kind of setup...Well, that's where Ron, you and MJK worksheets come into picture
Once again, many thanks to both you and Ron for spending time untangling my ramblings
Cheers,
Florian
I am currently listening to the Ciare HX201 in a radial setup (on top of a 25x50x100cm TQWT, facing the ceiling. Compared to the FE126E in the recommended enclosure I have built for a friend the Ciares (in combination with a 100W Panasonic digital receiver) have the potential to let your ears bleed and are far more neutral. I probably won`t get away from the radial setup again due to its cabability to deliver concert hall experience. I see my setup as a a cheapo alternative for the Lowther Audiovector. Unfortunately I never had the opportunity to listen to it (especially in combination with the AER MD2B). But maybe such an overkill of woodwork stresses even your budget too much.
The only thing I can think of (in terms of driver properties) is high sensitivity, big a$$ magnets/flux and low mass with short excursion. IOW breakneck acceleration. And then translating that in a supportive design to get me 1st row scale, image size/precision and (well..) dyamics while keeping the tonal
The greatest low mass to energy is a horn driver. However they are limited in BW. If you use an upper frequency horn and a fast lower frequency bass driver then you have it...........Wait! i just described an Altec Mdl 14 or 19. In reality i once heard a Mdl 14 that was bi-amped( no passive XO) and the sound was astounding.
Or just buy or build a VOTT.
The drawback to Burts FLH is the very very narrow sweet spot. It has been stated that after lots of speaker positioning and moving them around that if you turn your head slightly the sound stage collapses. Also its truly tough to find a LF system that can keep up with the speed of a Lowther or some of the very low Qts 8" Fostex drivers.
Getting back to wide-range (better so ?) based designs, I was thinking was smth like the Hawthorne Audio Augie , XOed around 300 Hz (too high ?) to a top quality, fast wide ranger. And a ribbon on top.
Martin has a set-up that fills the bill as far as OBs. Its a dual 15" for LF XOed to a Lowther. My problem with the general OB drivers is the very high Qts required. Its better IMO th just bite the bullet and go multi way OB, so you can use lower Qts drivers for the speed. Check out Martins site for his OB build. BTW, i am sitting here listening to OBs, not horns. An 8$ folding cardboard/side (Hobby Lobby) with RS-1354 single drivers with a single Yamaha/sub rolled off at 100 hz and a Yamaha surround sound reciever. Pretty dang good sound as long as the volume stays low.
ron
ron
The greatest low mass to energy is a horn driver. However they are limited in BW. If you use an upper frequency horn and a fast lower frequency bass driver then you have it...........Wait! i just described an Altec Mdl 14 or 19. In reality i once heard a Mdl 14 that was bi-amped( no passive XO) and the sound was astounding.
Or just buy or build a VOTT.
The drawback to Burts FLH is the very very narrow sweet spot. It has been stated that after lots of speaker positioning and moving them around that if you turn your head slightly the sound stage collapses. Also its truly tough to find a LF system that can keep up with the speed of a Lowther or some of the very low Qts 8" Fostex drivers.
Getting back to wide-range (better so ?) based designs, I was thinking was smth like the Hawthorne Audio Augie , XOed around 300 Hz (too high ?) to a top quality, fast wide ranger. And a ribbon on top.
Martin has a set-up that fills the bill as far as OBs. Its a dual 15" for LF XOed to a Lowther. My problem with the general OB drivers is the very high Qts required. Its better IMO th just bite the bullet and go multi way OB, so you can use lower Qts drivers for the speed. Check out Martins site for his OB build. BTW, i am sitting here listening to OBs, not horns. An 8$ folding cardboard/side (Hobby Lobby) with RS-1354 single drivers with a single Yamaha/sub rolled off at 100 hz and a Yamaha surround sound reciever. Pretty dang good sound as long as the volume stays low.
ron
ron
Florian,
I have probably directed you to my Project 7 before, but I will do it again. This system is pushing almost 100 dB/w/m and can move a lot of air at the low frequencies using the dual 15" woofers. I have added a super tweeter at the very top and am in the process of performing some in-room measurements to check against the MathCad model, documentation will follow. Wide sweet spot, great dynamics, Lowther mid-range, sounds good at low volume, and simple to build.
I have probably directed you to my Project 7 before, but I will do it again. This system is pushing almost 100 dB/w/m and can move a lot of air at the low frequencies using the dual 15" woofers. I have added a super tweeter at the very top and am in the process of performing some in-room measurements to check against the MathCad model, documentation will follow. Wide sweet spot, great dynamics, Lowther mid-range, sounds good at low volume, and simple to build.
I'd suggest the fe206esr in a BIB cab if you can work with the height etc. Maybe it could be customized to get the driver at a decent hieght or depending on your room just angle each cab inward along the wall / \
If I had the money or when I do, I really want to give this a go, but for now I'm really happy with my 108ez BIB's. Dave
If I had the money or when I do, I really want to give this a go, but for now I'm really happy with my 108ez BIB's. Dave
My musical tastes are very close to yours. I am a big fan of pre 20th century with special fondness for Bach, Mozart, Haydn, Handel, Rossini, Vivaldi, Chopin, Brahms and such.
Based on my limited experimentation in FR (alias wide range) OB I would go for the best largish (about 8-10") high efficiency FR driver with moderately high (.6-.8) Qts in a very solidly built OB. Run the FR with no crossover and add helper tweeter above 8kHz with 1st order crossover. Run these from a nice SET stereo amp of about 5-10W output.
On the same baffle use a nice large helper woofer biamped with either PP tubes or SS. Cross this in at the natural rolloff of the FR but no higher than about 60Hz. The Silver Iris 15" augie is the type of driver I have in mind.
Then finally for the sub sonics (remember Bach) and IB subwoofer system of several 15-18" drivers with very low Fs and a Qts similar to that recommended for the FR. Drive these with high output pro power amps. Roll them in to match the OB base drivers. Optional to the IB would be architectual horns if you wanted to spend more money to get more subsonic punch but you would need a large building.
The downside to my approach is that you probably wont' be able to spend much more than $10,000 total.
mike
Based on my limited experimentation in FR (alias wide range) OB I would go for the best largish (about 8-10") high efficiency FR driver with moderately high (.6-.8) Qts in a very solidly built OB. Run the FR with no crossover and add helper tweeter above 8kHz with 1st order crossover. Run these from a nice SET stereo amp of about 5-10W output.
On the same baffle use a nice large helper woofer biamped with either PP tubes or SS. Cross this in at the natural rolloff of the FR but no higher than about 60Hz. The Silver Iris 15" augie is the type of driver I have in mind.
Then finally for the sub sonics (remember Bach) and IB subwoofer system of several 15-18" drivers with very low Fs and a Qts similar to that recommended for the FR. Drive these with high output pro power amps. Roll them in to match the OB base drivers. Optional to the IB would be architectual horns if you wanted to spend more money to get more subsonic punch but you would need a large building.
The downside to my approach is that you probably wont' be able to spend much more than $10,000 total.
mike
I like the Vavaldi speakers quite a bit, they seem able to do just about everything you want from a single box. What it can't do (real deep bass) wouldn't be too hard to augment with a horn loaded sub. I listened to them for quite awhile at a speaker meet last year and was quite impressed with what I heard.
Here's a link to Lew Hardy's website so you can see for youself:
http://www.vivaldiaudio.com/
Best Regards,
TerryO
Here's a link to Lew Hardy's website so you can see for youself:
http://www.vivaldiaudio.com/
Best Regards,
TerryO
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