Price-no-object design for dynamic/complex music ? - diyAudio
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Old 4th May 2007, 10:34 PM   #1
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Default Price-no-object design for dynamic/complex music ?

Hello all,

Well, while I am _very_ happy with the A126 in my livingroom there is this one little thing that bugs me: For understandable reasons, it just falters on large scale/dynamic symphonic music -- there's only that much the lil 4 incher can do at one time and only that much dynamic range to go around.

Since I'm mostly listening to classical (baroque, but still...) that is a bit of an issue

So, out of curiosity, I've started looking for some project / setup that can handle that. Disappointingly (but unsurprisingly) I didn't get too far.

So, the question is: Is there such an all-out, price-no-object arrangement that can deliver that (revealing, Dynamic, fast, high eff, etc) ? I'm thinking PHY-HP / Fertin / Supravox / Lowther / etc maybe with woofers + ribbons/supertweeters. Whatever it takes: size, price, etc. (well, within reason, that is )

Any suggestion for an FR-based setup that can handle _very_ large/dynamic symphonics/operas (e.g. Wagner Ring, Mahler 5th, Orff's Carmina Burana, etc ) -- say from 200 Hz up -- by giving a rock solid 1st row symphonic hall presentation but keep things in proper tone, place and size ? If yes, which element / setup ?

How about putting an high-end FR + fast woofer on an OB (even going bi-amping) ?

Sorry if this is a bit unprecise, I'm just out for future ideas to explore...



P.S. There is a 2 yr old thread on this subject, and not very useful info: Most appropriate driver/enclosure/design for full orchestra source material?
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Old 4th May 2007, 11:48 PM   #2
Glowbug is offline Glowbug  United States
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The machine does not isolate us from the great problems of nature but plunges us more deeply into them. - Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
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Old 5th May 2007, 12:00 AM   #3
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Ron suggested that he was working on a ceiling-loaded back horn for the 206.

Given the sucess of the Austin and the little he mentioned about this new horn - I'd expect 100+db above 60hz - which should leave orchestra enjoyable at moderate levels.

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Old 5th May 2007, 12:04 AM   #4
ronc is offline ronc  United States
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How far are you willing to go?
As close as to virtual as you can get in recreation of a recorded medium IMHO is a 3-4 way horn system.
I never intended the A126 to achieve that goal.
I realize you like the Gallo, but have you ever heard an Altec Vott? If an all out design for maximum performance is your desire then be perpared to spend a fairly large amount of money and time if its DIY. Otherwise, spend a lot of $.
Dynamics is a function of speed or the ability to move a mass as close to a ever changing sine wave as possible. To accomplish this action requires segmenting portions of the FR to individual drivers designed for a specific range of the FR. Horns help as they amplify a given narrow range.
The whole point of FR single drivers is image and image position. You have to find the sound that you want and some will not find it in a single driver.

Is there such an all-out, price-no-object arrangement that can deliver that (revealing, Dynamic, fast, high eff, etc) ? I'm thinking PHY-HP / Fertin / Supravox / Lowther / etc maybe with woofers + ribbons/supertweeters. Whatever it takes: size, price, etc. (well, within reason, that is )

Within reason and price is no object is a contradiction. As close as a single driver is going to get is as mentioned above. I truly wish i had more time to devote to audio, but i have around 5 projects in un-related fields going on at the same time. I ran some rough sims on the horn app of the BIB (and its a horn) and i can see a great deal of potential. I think your assumption that a 4" driver can perform as well as a multi is incorrect. A larger driver can deliver the dynamics to a greater degree, but it requires a greater size horn.
You probably would have liked the Dallas more than the A126 or even the Fostex 208 design with a horn tweet.

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Old 5th May 2007, 12:28 AM   #5
ronc is offline ronc  United States
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A quote from one of my tech articles:

Lets define dynamics:
In dynamic range its defined by the ability to resolve a low level signal with a higher level signal, This means that at two different energys it must be able to clearly define the signal. Resolution comes with frequency. The ability to resolve two different reflectors in close proximity is a function of the frequency and size of the reflectors and the transducer size.(Ultrasonics talking here). Resolution is a matter of speed or the ability to convey the electrical sine wave to mechanical action as the electromechanical energy transfer efficency is the basis for the time it requires the conversion. So lower Qts drivers , which have a higher efficency, and horns which convert the energy at a greater rate from electrical to mechanical have an inherent higher degree of dynamics. Either the less mass, or the greater the energy or the more efficent conversion of the mass /energy relationship is a basis for dynamics
End result: If you want the highest resolution you will design around the highest efficency of conversion of the electrical signal to mechanical energy or add more electrical energy.

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Old 5th May 2007, 12:35 AM   #6
OzMikeH is offline OzMikeH  Australia
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for DIY check out the Oris or the Quasar depending if you like OB or horns. This guy gets his own woofers made but the 8 inch fullrange drivers can be Lowther, AER, or even Fostex.
I have heard the singular from here with AER Mk1 Drivers and they blew me away, then again I'm new to high end.

If you just want something beautiful and ready built, cost no object then check out the Swings. Funky and probably the only in your face front loaded horn you can expect your spouse to like.
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Old 5th May 2007, 01:28 AM   #7
ronc is offline ronc  United States
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Well if i was in the market and i wanted to design/build a no holds barred type system then it still would be a 3-4 way horn system.
Someday when i retire it may become a possibility, but at present i just design for normal applications. There are a lot of ppl out there that have no reference and still think a Bxxe system is the ultimate. I would never steal money based on hype, but i am honest.
And neither would i claim to the "worlds best horns" ....there are limits.
You would probably find the A166 or the dallas more to your liking than the A126 simply to the greater dynamic range.
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Old 5th May 2007, 03:15 AM   #8
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Originally posted by ronc

Within reason and price is no object is a contradiction. As close as a single driver is going to get is as mentioned above


Thanks for the input.

Well -- as I said in the beginning -- atm I still don't have my bearings straight and haven't this thought through (yet). Hence my sloppy post.

What I meant with "cost no object but within reason" was a high end design where the _value_ is clearly identifiable in the cost. The opposite of that would be e.g. an (better left unamed) bottom ported Fostex enclosure with a supertweeter on top that cost 4k or -- worse -- a BLH for a FE108E Sigma that costs 3.7k. You know what I mean.

In that respect -- while I haven't heard Bert D's designs -- 20k Euros for a 2-way front loaded horn (Swing) is way off what I was thinking of.

Which, to be more precise, was smth in the 3k -- 5k range for a DIY project.

If that was is to be a multi-way, well so be it. I never for a single moment considered achieving that with a single driver, much less with a 4''. They do what they do best and I accept in a second.

OTOH I am still at odds wrt relating the design goal of high resolution with lower Qts drivers. While I can clearly correlate high-end extension with high resolution, I'm not so sure about the low Qts. I guess I'll have to dig a bit deeper into John K material on that first...
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Old 5th May 2007, 03:21 AM   #9
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Ummm... it says "Full Range" on the top here!

That usually means one driver, no?

Once you are off into multi way systems, then you're just talking about speakers in general. Wrong place...

There is only one single answer for a real single driver full range system that can deal with complex music: Electrostatic Loudspeaker.

The max level/dynamic capability will depend on two things; the size of the speaker, and the power of the amp driving the speaker.

Now if you are talking high-efficiency speakers only, again, different place for that...

Personally I have some full range ESLs and I also have a very extraordinary horn based system, wherein the horn covers <300Hz to >10kHz FLAT without EQ, midbass with a brickwall filter below 300Hz is a 15" and then below it's natural cut off, I use a pair of my Quadripole subs... so technically a 3-way, and if you added a "super tweeter" for "air" then it is a 4 way. However, the key is to keep the maximal range in the middle coming from a single driver, the wider that range is (the minimum being 300 - 3000Hz.) the better, imho.

_-_-bear -- Btw, I don't actually know anything, FYI -- every once in a while I say something that makes sense... ]
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Old 5th May 2007, 07:42 AM   #10
hm is offline hm  Europe
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a cheap solution would be my

or this
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