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Old 5th May 2007, 06:41 PM   #21
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Originally posted by ronc
Also its truly tough to find a LF system that can keep up with the speed of a Lowther or some of the very low Qts 8" Fostex drivers.
With audio reviews are anything to go by, that can be done. -- apparently even with excelent results -- in a horn loaded enclosure nonetheless... I am refering to the Horning speakers like the Agathon ultimate or the Alkibiades. It was _that_ kind of high end hybrid design I would love to see emerging. And build. And hear. A hybrid high-end BIB maybe?

Or just buy or build a VOTT.
Well, after a quick search through this forum the closest thing I found to a DIY description was this drawing:

Altec Lansing

If anyone can point me to a more in-depth description/discussion of this design, DIY plans with driver complement I would be very grateful.
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Old 5th May 2007, 06:41 PM   #22
TerryO is offline TerryO  United States
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It my haste, I misspelled "Vivaldi". It looks like I'll be cleaning blackboards after school.

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"If you have to ask why, then you're probably on the right track."
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Old 5th May 2007, 07:06 PM   #23
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My friend, allow me to introduce you to one of the finest loudspeakers ever made. Behold the Altec Lansing Voice of the Theatre A7.

This is the 1968 era version. There are a couple of different boxes + plans here as this link to the official Altec Heritage Site will give you their Enclosure Design Guide of that year with 12 downloadable pictures. The VOTT A7 plans are the bottom-left hand picture, but I'd advise reading it all -12 pages of interesting & still educational data from one of the greatest of all speaker companies isn't much of a hardship... (well, I didn't think it was anyway. ) This is what is known as A Proper Speaker. Effectively, as you can see, the VOTT was / is a huge BR cabinet with the added twist of a front horn / waveguide for the woofer.

Note that these plans really only cover the bass end -the rest was / is handled by compression drivers in their own horn. But a sealed / aperiodic 206, & a good horn loaded supertweeter would be an interesting alternative. In fact, it could be a monster of an idea:
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Old 5th May 2007, 07:41 PM   #24
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Originally posted by MJK

I have probably directed you to my Project 7 before, but I will do it again. This system is pushing almost 100 dB/w/m and can move a lot of air at the low frequencies using the dual 15" woofers. I have added a super tweeter at the very top and am in the process of performing some in-room measurements to check against the MathCad model, documentation will follow. Wide sweet spot, great dynamics, Lowther mid-range, sounds good at low volume, and simple to build.

As per our discussion in the OB forum -- and if you read btw. the lines of my post above -- my short list was
- Your Project 7
- Bert D Quasar Mk II variation with two Augies wired in parallel and driven by a plate amp; FR on top and (maybe) a (super)tweeter.
- Dick Ohlsher OB2 version of the Visaton NoBox with the Augie and the Feastrex D5nf (my top fav from this list atm).

Still, I have two concerns with those setups when it comes to the kind of material we are talking about.

The first is what Ron mentioned above: Employing woofers with high Qt for the bass extension. IIRC you even used the Eminence Alpha 15A with a Qt of 1.2 (!). In my understanding that comes in direct contrast with the above strife for acceleration and dynamics.

The second is what I posted above and related to the first issue: Those woofers are XOed around 200 Hz -- in the aforementioned orchestral power region -- and thus there is a clear mismatch in transient speed/dynamics btw. the FR and the woofer(s).

Still, I will take your word for great dynamics and I will be looking forward for your driver integration and freq sweeps.


As you can see, we are on the same page. My fav listening is baroque, with Vivaldi, Telemann, Albioni and Händel (in that order) topping the list. However, I will be gladly offer my lowest octave for that goose-bumps-giving explosive transients in the upper bass (think "Mercury" from G. Holst "Planets" or the beginning of the Mahler 5th).

And yes, SET driven FRs and plate amps below is the hidden wish (atm very proud and happy with the 70 wpc from 4xKT90 pentodes / channel in EAR 890 but writing to Santa about a Welborne Labs DRD 300B, the Terraplane version. But I digress )
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Old 5th May 2007, 08:43 PM   #25
limono is offline limono  United States
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Default You can try Edgar Horn

It is the only honest , sort of affordable and also DIY possible horn solution on the market. Sorry but if you look for dynamics and scale with any realistic sense nothing else but horn will do . BD design -like designs are band aid for fostex ,lowther like drivers and don't work.I've met Bert it's a nice guy but the product is crap. It is better crap than most on the market nonethless its crap. (I know I use the idea too) Other possibility is Tannoy vintage 15" ($$$$) in horn cabinet ,maybe not very realistic but very seductive sound .My advice is to go to orchestra hall sit close to stage and hear the , mid bass ,low mid energy and than use it to evaluate the speaker in question. Mistakes on project like this tend to be expensive and I'm quite a victim Cheers. L
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Old 5th May 2007, 09:20 PM   #26
MJK is offline MJK  United States
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Employing woofers with high Qt for the bass extension. IIRC you even used the Eminence Alpha 15A with a Qt of 1.2 (!). In my understanding that comes in direct contrast with the above strife for acceleration and dynamics.
I think you are placing too much emphasis on the high Qts of the woofers. If you go with a low Qts woofer in an OB the bass is going to roll off much higher. With the higher Qts woofer, the OB is already rolling the bass off so the extended low frequency driver SPL response makes up for some of this width dependent characteristic.

Crossing over in the 100 to 200 Hz range means that no matter which woofer you use, it is only producing a very narrow range of frequencies. Turning off the second amp and listening only to the woofer(s) produces just a low end rumble, almost a muffled sounding bass. All of the speed, dynamics, and detail are produced by the full range driver so I recommend spending your money on this driver.

If you want to go the OB route, I believe a higher Qts bass driver is a real advantage. I started out with the same opinions and doubts that you are expressing. Sometimes you need to take a leap of faith, the higher Qts drivers are relatively inexpensive and a quick experiment will settle your questions/doubts. My next OB design will also use the Eminence Alpha 15A driver.
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Old 6th May 2007, 02:34 AM   #27
Tweeker is offline Tweeker  United States
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You can raise the q of a speaker to any arbitrary value with a resistor, though it does eat power and effects Z.
Be sure your foil hat has a good low impedance ground.
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Old 6th May 2007, 06:53 AM   #28
DaveCan is offline DaveCan  Canada
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I didn't really clue in to the price is no object idea in my last post. I'd still say get the best single driver fullrange you can muster and stay with that. Sink the rest of the money into the room and more music. Dave
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Old 6th May 2007, 07:14 AM   #29
Tweeker is offline Tweeker  United States
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A 50KW amplifier like WLW's Cathenode amplifier as a driver for a plasma speaker on each channel.

The Cathenode was a 50KW cathode modulated (no mod xfmr) AM transmitter. The modulator itself ran in class AB, rather than the usual B. Certified hifi by McIntosh Laboratories.

I suspect at some point, money is an object, alas.
Be sure your foil hat has a good low impedance ground.
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Old 6th May 2007, 08:40 AM   #30
Zen Mod is online now Zen Mod  Serbia
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1. Altec VOT A7 bass cab (Altec driver required for speed!) + some wooden mid-horn (Edgar?) ( or 8-cell if not 15 cell) + helper tweet ,with Hiraga xovers

2. Klipsch KH bass cab + nice wooden mid horn (again Edgar) + tweet

3. nice 10" in somewhat wider Mauhorn + Lowther like driver in OB

3a. OB like MJK's Lowther + two 15"

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