Price-no-object design for dynamic/complex music ?

[Scottmoose]

Now that's a neat setup. I like.

Speaking generally, Ron's 100% correct of course (as usual) -if you want to do dynamics, then an FR driver based system is never going to get near a good multiway (I stress the word good). I love FR drivers, but I've been accused of heresy in the past for stating that my dream setup is a 3 way (or better) Altec VOTT. Oh well.

Sticking closer to FR units, if you want something that can do major dynamic swings, then I'd get the best 15in woofer with plenty of excursion that I could afford (although the cheap Eminence units are ideal for this too) and stick them in a PA style scoop-bin, and XO to something like an FE206E in a sealed or aperiodically vented box, preferably with Dave's phase-plugs mounted, and a good super-tweeter to handle the highs, as the 206 is a bit rough & ready over 12KHz or so. Blumenco has a setup just like this, minus the plugs & tweeters.

That's probably going to be about as good as it gets without going for full-scale horns for the bass-units and 206 (in which case, you'd better be planning on building a new house with a living room about the size of the average ballroom, specifically designed around the system). Even this isn't going to be exactly small -probably around a 2ft square footprint and ~50in tall, assuming the sealed boxes are placed on top of the scoop-bins.

[FlorianO]

Scott,

Finally an understanding soul mate

As we all know there is no "clear cut" full range. Afterall there is no truely full range single driver. No point in hiding behind the bush or slicing and dicing if a full range means single driver, high effs or not, etc. etc.

Frankly, I was guessing along the lines you mentioned.

My problem is that I still have a hard time being able to "quantify" dynamics (both macro and micro) and the subsequent transparency/immediacy . The only thing I can think of (in terms of driver properties) is high sensitivity, big a$$ magnets/flux and low mass with short excursion. IOW breakneck acceleration. And then translating that in a supportive design to get me 1st row scale, image size/precision and (well..) dyamics while keeping the tonal accuracy of FRs

Putting it differently, the question is along what kind of design lines one should think for achieving that.

One might very well be multi-way horns -- like Ron suggested -- and I will take a closer look at the Oris horns.

Still the challenge seems to be that -- based on my novice observations -- a lot of acoustic power of large orchestrals (and thus macrodynamic requirements) seems to happen in the upper bass / lower midrange two octaves. Smack bang where an XO to a woofer use to lie Anectdotally that was exactly the problem Bert D. had: Find a woofer that can match the speed of his horns.

Alternatively, with box/dipole designs, finding a woofer that can match a suitable FR.

Getting back to wide-range (better so ?) based designs, I was thinking was smth like the Hawthorne Audio Augie , XOed around 300 Hz (too high ?) to a top quality, fast wide ranger. And a ribbon on top.

What kind of setup...Well, that's where Ron, you and MJK worksheets come into picture

Once again, many thanks to both you and Ron for spending time untangling my ramblings

Cheers,

Florian

[Tweeker]

If moneys really no object, I think a large plasma arc driver shielded by inert gas crossed to dipole bass would do for me. Here its operating costs rather than/ in addition to purchase thats the killer.

[el`Ol]

I am currently listening to the Ciare HX201 in a radial setup (on top of a 25x50x100cm TQWT, facing the ceiling. Compared to the FE126E in the recommended enclosure I have built for a friend the Ciares (in combination with a 100W Panasonic digital receiver) have the potential to let your ears bleed and are far more neutral. I probably won`t get away from the radial setup again due to its cabability to deliver concert hall experience. I see my setup as a a cheapo alternative for the Lowther Audiovector. Unfortunately I never had the opportunity to listen to it (especially in combination with the AER MD2B). But maybe such an overkill of woodwork stresses even your budget too much.

[ronc]

The only thing I can think of (in terms of driver properties) is high sensitivity, big a$$ magnets/flux and low mass with short excursion. IOW breakneck acceleration. And then translating that in a supportive design to get me 1st row scale, image size/precision and (well..) dyamics while keeping the tonal

The greatest low mass to energy is a horn driver. However they are limited in BW. If you use an upper frequency horn and a fast lower frequency bass driver then you have it...........Wait! i just described an Altec Mdl 14 or 19. In reality i once heard a Mdl 14 that was bi-amped( no passive XO) and the sound was astounding.
Or just buy or build a VOTT.
The drawback to Burts FLH is the very very narrow sweet spot. It has been stated that after lots of speaker positioning and moving them around that if you turn your head slightly the sound stage collapses. Also its truly tough to find a LF system that can keep up with the speed of a Lowther or some of the very low Qts 8" Fostex drivers.


Getting back to wide-range (better so ?) based designs, I was thinking was smth like the Hawthorne Audio Augie , XOed around 300 Hz (too high ?) to a top quality, fast wide ranger. And a ribbon on top.
Martin has a set-up that fills the bill as far as OBs. Its a dual 15" for LF XOed to a Lowther. My problem with the general OB drivers is the very high Qts required. Its better IMO th just bite the bullet and go multi way OB, so you can use lower Qts drivers for the speed. Check out Martins site for his OB build. BTW, i am sitting here listening to OBs, not horns. An 8$ folding cardboard/side (Hobby Lobby) with RS-1354 single drivers with a single Yamaha/sub rolled off at 100 hz and a Yamaha surround sound reciever. Pretty dang good sound as long as the volume stays low.

ron
ron

[MJK]

Florian,

I have probably directed you to my Project 7 before, but I will do it again. This system is pushing almost 100 dB/w/m and can move a lot of air at the low frequencies using the dual 15" woofers. I have added a super tweeter at the very top and am in the process of performing some in-room measurements to check against the MathCad model, documentation will follow. Wide sweet spot, great dynamics, Lowther mid-range, sounds good at low volume, and simple to build.

[DaveCan]

I'd suggest the fe206esr in a BIB cab if you can work with the height etc. Maybe it could be customized to get the driver at a decent hieght or depending on your room just angle each cab inward along the wall / \
If I had the money or when I do, I really want to give this a go, but for now I'm really happy with my 108ez BIB's. Dave

[gychang]

Originally posted by MJK
Florian,

I have probably directed you to my Project 7 before, Wide sweet spot, great dynamics, Lowther mid-range, sounds good at low volume, and simple to build.

will like to see the picture/design.

gychang

[mashaffer]

My musical tastes are very close to yours. I am a big fan of pre 20th century with special fondness for Bach, Mozart, Haydn, Handel, Rossini, Vivaldi, Chopin, Brahms and such.

Based on my limited experimentation in FR (alias wide range) OB I would go for the best largish (about 8-10") high efficiency FR driver with moderately high (.6-.8) Qts in a very solidly built OB. Run the FR with no crossover and add helper tweeter above 8kHz with 1st order crossover. Run these from a nice SET stereo amp of about 5-10W output.

On the same baffle use a nice large helper woofer biamped with either PP tubes or SS. Cross this in at the natural rolloff of the FR but no higher than about 60Hz. The Silver Iris 15" augie is the type of driver I have in mind.

Then finally for the sub sonics (remember Bach) and IB subwoofer system of several 15-18" drivers with very low Fs and a Qts similar to that recommended for the FR. Drive these with high output pro power amps. Roll them in to match the OB base drivers. Optional to the IB would be architectual horns if you wanted to spend more money to get more subsonic punch but you would need a large building.

The downside to my approach is that you probably wont' be able to spend much more than $10,000 total.

mike

[TerryO]

I like the Vavaldi speakers quite a bit, they seem able to do just about everything you want from a single box. What it can't do (real deep bass) wouldn't be too hard to augment with a horn loaded sub. I listened to them for quite awhile at a speaker meet last year and was quite impressed with what I heard.

Here's a link to Lew Hardy's website so you can see for youself:

http://www.vivaldiaudio.com/

Best Regards,
TerryO