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Old 2nd May 2007, 01:24 PM   #1
fsammet is offline fsammet  United States
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Default PMS plus Avalon clone equals ???

Due to limited room size I cannot use speakers that require more than 1-2 feet spacing from the front wall to properly develop their soundstage. Iíve studied the Poor Mans Strad (PMS) with interest as an example of how to approximate an Open Baffle soundstage without the spacing requirements. Iíve also found all of the Avalon like designs (Soup, MilestonesÖ) to be fascinating, primarily for their use of the Accuton/Theile drivers.

Hereís my question: Has anyone tried combining an expanded the PMS box with the Milestones drivers and x-over???

If you havenít tried it, any thoughts on how well this might work?


Milestones:
http://homepage.mac.com/marc.heijlig...nes/index.html

Soup:
http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Soup.html

PMS:
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/PMS.htm
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/PMS-EXCEL.htm
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Old 2nd May 2007, 05:19 PM   #2
Taco is offline Taco  Netherlands
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There is only one anwser don't do it. Seas Excel is on par with Accuton. Also Troels did a great job with the PMS.
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Old 2nd May 2007, 07:02 PM   #3
marche is offline marche  Netherlands
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Quote:
Originally posted by Taco
There is only one anwser don't do it.
There are multiple answers.

One option is to use Accuton units and an existing filter, but that will definitely give different results as an orignal Milestones or Soup. It will be a bit of a surprise whether it will work out well, and it will require re-tuning of the filter to obtain acceptable results. For instance, at this moment I'm doing some tuning on the response curve, compensating for internal cabinet resonances. The choices I make there will be different for another cabinet.

A second option is to stick with the PMS design as it is. I guess the creator has put serious effort in balancing the overall result, and you will have to redo that work when making chances. Both Seas and Accuton make good units (though with different characteristics), so just like Taco says, on itself the unit brand is no reason for a change. I've heard some Seas-based designs I could happily live with.

There are many other options as well gradually chance units and filter, buy/build a new house, etc. etc.)

Quote:
Originally posted by fsammet
If you havenít tried it, any thoughts on how well this might work?
If you want quick results, and the cabinet is your limiting factor, I would stick with the original PMS design. Decent speaker design takes a lot of time.

Marc
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Old 2nd May 2007, 07:10 PM   #4
fsammet is offline fsammet  United States
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Thanks for your comments, Taco. Have you built and/or heard the PMS Excel version? It does look like very well considered both in design and execution, hence my interest.
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Old 2nd May 2007, 07:52 PM   #5
fsammet is offline fsammet  United States
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Hi Marc,

I thought your name looked familiar and then I realized that you are the designer of Milestones. Congratulations on your meticulous efforts and outstanding web site. It's all quite inspiring. I do agree that speaker design is a big job. Due to circumstances described in my original post, I'm intrigued by the PMS WB cabinet but I'm a bit frustrated that I cannot find more testimonials or reviews of how it sounds and fits into various systems. The Avalon clones seem to have more information available on the internet, your web site is a great example. This is why I came up with the question: "What happens if we combine these two designs?" I do see that building a PMS according to its documented design is probably a great starting point, though I do wish the excel version had an excel tweeter incorporated into the design. If anyone out there has heard the PMS, particularly the excel version, please chime in!

Fred
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Old 4th May 2007, 06:48 PM   #6
marche is offline marche  Netherlands
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Hi Fred,

Quote:
Originally posted by fsammet
I do see that building a PMS according to its documented design is probably a great starting point, though I do wish the excel version had an excel tweeter incorporated into the design.
My advice would be to not focus too much on high-priced units. For instance, I've auditioned the Totem Arro at home recently, and in some aspects the treble of its 25 euro Peerless tweeter is nicer than the 169 euro Thiel C^2 12 tweeters (less sticky to the speaker, more floating in the air), in other aspects they are less nice (all treble has the same type of smoothness, there is hardly any distinction between different type of trebles).

What I try to say, cheap does not mean "less satisfying". It's a matter of taste, and you can only make a good decision when you can audition the units in a well-designed system.

Marc
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Old 5th May 2007, 12:16 AM   #7
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If you're interested in Accuton units specifically and want something smallish that will fit in your living room, I've written an overview of a 2.1-way design that I built a couple of years ago.

I considered some Seas Excel units too, but in the end I chose the C^2 94-8 for the midbass because the 5kHz break-up mode appeared to be lower in level and had a lower Q - confirmed by the step response plots, which showed less ringing.

However, in hindsight, putting a 7" midwoofer in a 15L satellite was probably not a good idea. The magnet is quite strong and although it would work in a 7L box, such clean-sounding speaker definitely needs a box with a bigger volume so the SPL behind the speaker is lower.
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Old 5th May 2007, 02:25 AM   #8
fsammet is offline fsammet  United States
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Quote:
Originally posted by marche
My advice would be to not focus too much on high-priced units. For instance, I've auditioned the Totem Arro at home recently, and in some aspects the treble of its 25 euro Peerless tweeter is nicer than the 169 euro Thiel C^2 12 tweeters (less sticky to the speaker, more floating in the air), in other aspects they are less nice (all treble has the same type of smoothness, there is hardly any distinction between different type of trebles).
Sensible advice, to be sure. My previous DIY was a kit from North Creek Music called the Okara II. Tweeter is a SS D2905/9500 and the woofer is the Vifa P13WH-00-08 crossed over by a George Short designed dividing network. A very smooth and musical monitor. I now have George's latest monitor with a modified SS 15W/4531G00 midwoofer and the North D28 tweeter. Much more expensive drivers and a far better sound in so many ways (happy to describe if you're interested). However... I still want better so I tend to focus on the higher end drivers hoping for even better sound.

Quote:
Originally posted by marche
What I try to say, cheap does not mean "less satisfying". It's a matter of taste, and you can only make a good decision when you can audition the units in a well-designed system.
Marc
And this is a at the core of my dilemma, I can't really audition these DIY systems. So I was hoping to focus on higher end drivers that I could try in different cabinets and work with the crossovers to fine tune. A lot of work but it seems that the more DIYers have tried a design (like an Avalon clone), the better my starting point and the more likely I am to have a good outcome. Am I making any sense????

Fred
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Old 5th May 2007, 05:40 AM   #9
marche is offline marche  Netherlands
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Quote:
Originally posted by fsammet
So I was hoping to focus on higher end drivers that I could try in different cabinets and work with the crossovers to fine tune. A lot of work but it seems that the more DIYers have tried a design (like an Avalon clone), the better my starting point and the more likely I am to have a good outcome. Am I making any sense????
It is a matter of personal preference. There are people that adore the Milestones, there are people that adore some parts, and are critical about other parts, there are people that are impressed, but conclude it is not their type of speaker.

And this is the case with every high-end speaker. You can be influenced by the opinions of others (THE existince of the hifi magazine), and select things based on trust. But there is only one person that can decide - by audition - whether it makes sense to spend so much money on these units: you.

Why not spend a nice holiday in Europe? Danmark and the Netherlands can be very nice!

Marc
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Old 5th May 2007, 07:07 PM   #10
fsammet is offline fsammet  United States
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Marc

You are right, there is no substitute for hearing for oneself.

Europe sounds nice, maybe a few other Texans would be interested in joining in a holiday to tour the great DIY speakers of Danmark and the Netherlands!

Fred
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