Zarathu's Line Arrays - diyAudio
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Old 21st April 2007, 02:47 PM   #1
Zarathu is offline Zarathu  United States
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Default Only one tiny mention of a full line array......

Mod Note: This thread was split off from here

Ultimate home theater rooooom ..NEED UR HELP NOW! :)

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Once I experienced a line array system, I never had any interest at all in going back to MINIATURE MUSIC. Now some people have been brought up on miniature music and don't want to hear full sound in their house, but I do.

Prior to building my line array(took me two 1/2 years including the learning curve), there were certain kinds of music which I could never listen to and in any way confuse it with the real thing: top of the list was piano and organ.

Since my line array is finished, I could swear there was a fella playing a grand piano 10 feet from me, or that I was actually in a church listening to a full pipe organ.

The heck with middle speakers, and back speakers, my full three way line array puts me inside the near field without reflections, and all the ambience, and reality is right in my face as if I was really at the performance. The ONLY thing less real is that my front wall is only 12 feet wide so a symphony orchestra with a 35 foot front is shorter. Last night I was listening to Michael Murray playing Toccata & Fugue in D minor(organ), and after 6 months of listening I could still say an unequivocal, "WOW!" at the end.

Go for full size music, not MINIATURE MUSIC.

Email me if you want a full description of my system, and how much it cost( less than $1600, including electronic crossovers, and Tri-Amping)

Zarathu
calipso@epix.net
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Old 21st April 2007, 07:30 PM   #2
JinMTVT is offline JinMTVT  Canada
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Could anyone comment on what :Zarathu
has just brought in ( line arrays )

i have build serveral line array systems ..all stereo
and all compromises for $$$ and efficiency

though i loved the powerfull mids of all 3-4" drivers,
i cannot say that they do define soundstage more in my room where i have tested em, then my cheapo stereo 3 way enclosures ...

What exactly do line array alter in term of source localisation ... ??



On another subject; the drivers i will use will need to have a pretty good dispertion and off axis performance if i want 6 by 2 people size to listen and all get the same performance...how do we get those numbers?
is there a minimum to look at?
i can easily check out by hand or in 3d depending on driver distance how much angle will be required at almost full spl ...
do all the drivers have some minimum angle from 0degree before they start going down ?
( i mean is there always a 5 or 10 or 15 degree where we get all the spl before the off axis response starts to go down ? )
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Old 21st April 2007, 07:44 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally posted by JinMTVT
i have build serveral line array systems ..all stereo
and all compromises for $$$ and efficiency
I have yet to hear a line array i could live with (i could live -- did live with for years -- with the sound of my Acoustat 1+1s, but the amplifier power needed ended up being a deal breaker)

Click the image to open in full size.

dave
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Old 21st April 2007, 08:05 PM   #4
Zarathu is offline Zarathu  United States
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You have to remember that my arrays are also operating with electronic crossovers, and a separate amp for each line. The two woofers have a 350 w/ch amp, the midrange line has a 175 w/ch amp, and the tweeter lines have a 60 w/ch amp.

Amplifier power comes to 1120 RMS watts total. The woofer SPL is 92, the Midrange spl is 96, and the tweeter spl is 106.

The crossover is a Rane AC23 with time delay. There is no passive crossover padding. Balance is handled by the power amps and the Rane crossover amplification circuits.

I doubt whether the system would sound nearly the same if it wasn't tri-amped.

However, having lived for many years(I'm 58 years old) with very high quality DIY point source systems, I'll never go back to them.

To each his own.

If you find that cheapo three way speakers provide more detail and less distortion than my 60 tweeters, 34 mid ranges and woofers that only handle 165hz and down electronically crossed and Tri-amp powered by 1100 watts rms........ more power to you.

Zarathu
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Old 21st April 2007, 08:16 PM   #5
Zarathu is offline Zarathu  United States
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Default Also.....

Each of my 3 inch 3.3 Xmax mid ranges(crossed at 165, and at 2650) are in their own completely separate enclosure, separated by 3/4 inch air space from the others.

They are in 23.5 x 4 inch PVC tubes. The tubes are sealed, and are stuffed with 4lb/cu. ft. fiberglass stuffing, with pillow fill coverings on one end to protect the speakers from fiberglass fibers. This enclosure makes an enormous difference in the quality of the midrange speakers, and virtually eliminates the sound back to through the speaker, and the qualities of a tube itself eliminated odd ordered harmonics, meaning what is left is the even ones which introduce what's left as clarity in sound(inside the cabinets).

Tubes get stronger when pressure is put into them.

The 15 Xmax Goldsound woofers handle the sound from 165hz down. They have an F3 of 31.5 hz.

ITS NOT YOUR USUAL LINE ARRAY DESIGN........

Zarathu
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Old 21st April 2007, 08:23 PM   #6
Zarathu is offline Zarathu  United States
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Default one more thing..... : JAMES GRIFFIN, PHD

Anyone who has built line arrays and has not done so using the research provided by Jim Griffin, PhD, in his reaserach on line arrays

http://www.audiodiycentral.com/awpapers.shtml

has undoubtedly built ones which will not sustain the test of time. Nearfield line arrays for use in small rooms are a far cry from those used in auditoriums, and the work of Dr.Griffin has done that same for line array systems that the work of Thiele and Small did for taking vented and sealed mid and bass speaker systems out of the voodoo land.

If you didn't build your line arrays using the Griffin parameters, then you cannot compare them to mine. it would be like comparing a speaker designed by the seat of your pants to one design using T/S data and computers.

Zarathu
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Old 21st April 2007, 08:45 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally posted by Zarathu
with electronic crossovers, and a separate amp for each line. The two woofers have a 350 w/ch amp, the midrange line has a 175 w/ch amp, and the tweeter lines have a 60 w/ch amp....The crossover is a Rane AC23
I have little doubt that the arrays sound better with active XOs, but i doubt i could live with your amps* and i certainly couldn't live with the Rane XO...

*over the last 5 years or so it has become fairly clear that there is a general correlation between power & how good an amp can sound (at least within my experience & to my ears) with the better amps all being smaller. Around here a big amp is 50W and the best ones are 2-10W.

dave
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Old 21st April 2007, 08:49 PM   #8
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Default Re: one more thing..... : JAMES GRIFFIN, PHD

Quote:
Originally posted by Zarathu
If you didn't build your line arrays using the Griffin parameters,
The arrays i have heard could well have been designed by Jim himself...

dave
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Old 21st April 2007, 09:48 PM   #9
Zarathu is offline Zarathu  United States
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Default I need a little more to understand you, Dave......

OK....
Dave,
You said....

"over the last 5 years or so it has become fairly clear that there is a general correlation between power & how good an amp can sound (at least within my experience & to my ears) with the better amps all being smaller."

Fairly clear to who? This isn't obvious to me. So could you provide the references to substantiate your "it have become fairly clear". Now perhaps I'm too far out of the mainstream, but I've heard nothing that says this. You also said, " at least within my experience & to my ears." So which is it, something you believe or something some part of the audio community believes?

Also, could you show the speaker system you have the picture without the covers over the speakers, so that the speakers are visible? Or failing that, could you share some of the design parameters for it? Is that a woofer system next to it? What is its configuration? Is this an example of a line array that you can't live with?

And, you said the arrays "could have been designed by Jim". Did you mean Jim Griffin? Who were they designed by, and could you give us some design parameters of those arrays? I have seen many designs that claimed they were following Jim's paper and it appeared that the person never read it at all.

You've spoken in a lot of generalities to disagree with my point of view on line arrays.
It may be that your real point of view is just represented by "I just don't like line array sound." And that's clearly, then, your opinion.

I've been very specific in what my system consists of and how its built. I can't very appreciate your point of reference unless you are willing to provide the same level of specificity---unless its just a personal, non-specific dislike of the line arrays you have heard, and you can't really explain what you don't like.

Kind regards,

Zarathu
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Old 21st April 2007, 10:41 PM   #10
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Default Re: I need a little more to understand you, Dave......

Quote:
Originally posted by Zarathu
"over the last 5 years or so it has become fairly clear that there is a general correlation between power & how good an amp can sound (at least within my experience & to my ears) with the better amps all being smaller."

Fairly clear to who? This isn't obvious to me. So could you provide the references to substantiate your "it have become fairly clear". Now perhaps I'm too far out of the mainstream, but I've heard nothing that says this. You also said, " at least within my experience & to my ears." So which is it, something you believe or something some part of the audio community believes?
It is something i have personally discovered over the last 30 years and it seems to be a fairly substantial part of growing part of the diy community (a very striking for instance, is that Nelson Pass (as i understand) thinks his 1st watt amps are sonically more pleasing than his big, money making Pass amps)

Quote:
Also, could you show the speaker system you have the picture without the covers over the speakers, so that the speakers are visible?
There are no covers on those speakers... you are looking at the raw drivers (2 4ft tall ESL panels)

Quote:
And, you said the arrays "could have been designed by Jim". Did you mean Jim Griffin? Who were they designed by, and could you give us some design parameters of those arrays?
Yes, Jim Griffin, and i am pretty sure they were designed by him... these were arrarys of 3 different magnitudes all with CSS WR125s + Aurun Cantus ribbons,

Quote:
You've spoken in a lot of generalities to disagree with my point of view on line arrays.
It may be that your real point of view is just represented by "I just don't like line array sound." And that's clearly, then, your opinion.
I have been facinated with line arrays since i was a kid (35 years!). I think what i said was pretty clear... i have yet to hear a line array i could live with. Of course that is my personal opinion.

Quote:
I've been very specific in what my system consists of and how its built. I can't very appreciate your point of reference unless you are willing to provide the same level of specificity---unless its just a personal, non-specific dislike of the line arrays you have heard, and you can't really explain what you don't like.
Well not really... we don't know anything about your amps (except that they are high powered which sets them at a disadvantage, and nothing about the drivers you used, just the quantity -- and in light of just the quantity, the quality would be suspect.

I don't dispute that you have a system that you thorougly enjoy, i'm just saying that given my experience, and the limited description you have provided, that i probably couldn't.

The best LA i've heard were the ones from the pic i posted

http://www.t-linespeakers.org/FALL/system/index.html

they gave way to a system that i found much more musically enjoyable, and i have improved on that original replacement system considerably

Jin is going to have to weigh the descriptions of the experiences of others, make his own choices (& misteps) and take his own path to audio nirvana.

It is most important that he get the room right, and leave things flexible, since there is a very good chance, no matter what he chooses, he won't get it right the 1st time (or more accurately, learn so much from the 1st crack, that a 2nd crack will produce something better)

dave
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