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onebadziggy 18th January 2003 03:05 PM

Beginning my first project
 
I have decided to start making some speakers for myself. These will be the first ones that I'm not going by a plan for. I've built countless subwoofer boxes for cars, and as far as home speakers go I've only built an Eton 8.1 Kit from madisound for a friend.

Right now I have little bose Interlude 2000 series bookshelfs that annoy me to no end. They have a 6.5" Driver and I've heard more bass response from a 4".

What I've been looking at is the Peerless 811815 Tweeter, and the Peerless 850122 Woofer. It will be a 2 way set up and I'd like to make floorstanders out of them. I do have very nice speaker stands I made myself, however, and if the woofer works better in a bookshelf design, I can use the stands.

Several Concerns I have:

The driver cost of around $115 is where I'd like to stay if anyone has any other driver suggestions.

Winisd is showing me a 1.2 cube box tuned to 35 Hz. Is this a good size or should I play around with it more?

Will the drivers work together well? Where should I start with a cross over design?

I dont have any speaker anaylsis software, so I have to do everything by ear, which will be referenced to the previously mentioned Etons.

What brand caps, inductors, and resistors would suit these drivers potential well?

Is there a proven design that others have built with these drivers? I've seen the woofer implemented before, but with a different tweeter.

Thank you for all help!

halojoy 18th January 2003 06:12 PM

Hello PEERLESS lovers!
 
:cool: Peerless! :cool:
Is it something in the Air, or what. :)
Suddenly people discover that they will build Peerless LSP. :)

SkinnyBoy: My Speakers!!! I Have Decided!!! Peerless All The Way!!!

And here is the answer to him, from kelticwizard:
Can't go wrong with Peerless. Personally, I prefer the 10" in the CSX line, because it has a large excursion-9 mm-plus it goes all the way to 2,000 Hz. It is an improved version of the CCC 10" subwoofer which at one time was one of the best subs you could buy. But the 8" is also good.
------------------------------

I can add to this:
Peerless makes drivers, with VERY good Value for money.
Especially good for Vented boxes. ;)

You could join SkinnyBoy thread or he can join yours.
Or you can try keep BOTH threads alive .....

I, halojoy, wish you the best of luck with your first serious
loudspeaker-project.
:angel: I will help with what little I know.

Good Luck, ;) onebadziggy ;)

/halo - helps to place one bad ziggy on the top of the agenda

FrankDIY 18th January 2003 07:12 PM

Wait man, this is not finished. This afternoon I am veneering my Totem Arro Clone. All Peerless drivers. I should be able to post something in a few days.

halojoy 18th January 2003 07:18 PM

OBOY!
 
Quote:

Originally posted by François
Wait man, this is not finished. This afternoon I am veneering my Totem Arro Clone. All Peerless drivers. I should be able to post something in a few days.
Now, François!!! :D

Peerless is attacking from all sides ....

/halo - takes cover :eek: :eek:

Ilianh 18th January 2003 07:43 PM

Heh, I'd make a all peerless design too... If i had the money... (bah...)

onebadziggy 19th January 2003 12:31 AM

well halo, I do believe its in the air, as I was going to go for Vifas, but then decided that peerless looked really good too.

I think I will commence the ordering of the drivers on madisound's next buisness day.

But one question- how would a two way be with the tweeter I picked and the 10" CSX as opposed to the 7"? Would I have a sonic gap? I ask this becasue I will most likely not be implementing a subwoofer into the system, at least for a long while.

I'm sooo excited!:D :D

*running around singing* gonna get better than my boses for less! *running around singing*

halojoy 19th January 2003 01:08 AM

Woofer+Tweeter - Sizes
 
Quote:

Originally posted by onebadziggy
well halo, I do believe its in the air
--------------------
But one question- how would a two way be with the tweeter I picked and the 10" CSX as opposed to the 7"? Would I have a sonic gap? I ask this becasue I will most likely not be implementing a subwoofer into the system, at least for a long while.

I never should build like that.
There might not be a gap in freq-curve. Not on axis.
But a big Woofer can not spread the sound.
It is against physical laws.
--
You can not have 10 inch and baffle small in width either.
250 mm is not a narrow baffle.
And the distance center-center dome-woofer
will be long, say 180mm (250/2 + 110/2) which is big compared
to crossover wavelenght.
All this will limit the spread of soundwaves at upper mid.
------------
And the upper mid, say 1000Hz - is not what a 10" do best.
-------------------------

For my own two-way, I do not like to go for bigger woofer than
5 1/4" = 135mm
I just bought Audax HM130Z0 - as base for 2-way system.
It is 130mm.
And then you should know that I search for tweters that
go low. FS< 750 Hz and crossover preferable not above 2000-2500Hz.


Scanspeak have tweeters with fs=500-600
Vifa D27 has something like 650-750Hz.

A good thumb rule, when using 12dB filter
is to select crossover at least 2 octaves above Fs.
That is Cossover Freq >= 4 x Fs

-------------------

So if you want good directional info from that area
(upper mid)and in the crossover region,
you should not use too large woofer
and not select crossover frequency too high.
And, it could be as you say "a gap".
-----------------------------------------

Now many commercial speakers are having just that:
a lot of bass and good high frequency
and a gap in middle.
-----------------------
This is because the sellers have discover that such sound sells!
The customers like it. (They make such tests on gruops of people).

But it is not accurate reproduction of music/sound.
And can not be called HIFI.
--------------------------------------

In the end it comes downto what your goal is.
for disco your solution is perfect.
for natural music that sounds "as it is intended to"
it is not the optimal way.
------------------------------------

This was a long answer
by halo

db6546 19th January 2003 03:09 AM

This site contains a project that uses the Peerless drivers that you mentioned. Check out the Peerless Pipes. I'm thinking about building a set myself.

http://geocities.com/rbrines1/

planet10 19th January 2003 04:02 AM

Some comments on halo's comments
 
halo has done his homework
on the "modern 2-way"

what he says is fairly standard thinking
but there are other sets of compromises
that work well too...

more than one way to skin a cat

So here to widen the possibilities...


Quote:

You can not have 10 inch and baffle small in width either.
250 mm is not a narrow baffle.
There are 10s that thru cone trickery can be very extended... an example (not something you can buy at Madisound thou)

http://members.shaw.ca/planet10/big-foster.jpg

an early 60s vintage Foster (parent of Fostex)... to quote hurdygurdyman

Quote:

I've been listening and tweeking my 10 inch vintage AlNiCo Zenith drivers now for several days. These are a new experience for me, as I've never had a 10 inch driver that seems to have to much treble! The frequency range where cymbals and high percussive sounds, and much sibilance, have a lot of energy is coming out to prominate whith these drivers. It gives music an un-natural "snappyness" in the upper mids/lower treble region. Not sure what causes this. The cone is smooth paper pulp, no concentric rings. The surround is rubberised accordian, the voice coil is two inches in diameter. Rather large AlNiCo magnet (the horseshoe frame is about 6" x 4"). Suspension is rather stiff. Bass is unbelievably tight! (I'm using them in TQWP's) I installed homemade phase plugs, which reduced a lot of hash, but still to much treble energy. I Dammared the cone, which cleaned things up noticably, but didn't change the balance. Played with a zobel circuit (finally keeping a 1 mFd/8 ohm one in it)(yea I know, zobel is not for correcting eq, but it does help, and I didn't want an inductor in the system, or any more active components) Finally added some felt batting (from old sleeping bag)doughnuts about 5 inches in diameter with 2 inch holes to fit around the phase plugs. Glued them with rubber school glue to the cones. This balanced them out pretty good, with just a hint of the excess energy they had in the treble. These are quite efficient, very quick sounding, with great sounding lean bass slam. Much better then my Pioneer 8"s.
Quote:

And the distance center-center dome-woofer
will be long
You get around this
(in the above case)
by executing a dustcapectomy,
adding a phase plug
and adding a small T
to the end of the phase plug

But this strays far from the convential
it be more like a Frugal-phile[tm] tannoy

[QUOTE]F
Quote:

or my own two-way, I do not like to go for bigger woofer than
5 1/4" = 135mm
A good rule-of-thumb
IMO

You give up bass for better mids
a higher XO to the T

(and a sub is always a good idea*)
* most may think a sub
provides bass

It does, but
the most imporatnt thing it does
is make the mids better

Quote:

Audax HM130Z0
This one is not
in my personal experience set
but reports are that it is fine

One i have known
that is VERY good
the VIFA P13

and François will soon
report on his little Peerless

Quote:

and crossover preferable not above 2000-2500Hz.
Here i will strongly disagree

NO XO from 250 to 4K
(even lower & higher is better)
the XO is always a weak link
best it not be somewhere
where the most critical stuff lives


Quote:

So if you want good directional info from that area
(upper mid)and in the crossover region,
you should not use too large woofer
and not select crossover frequency too high.
The argument of good off-axis performance
is sound intellectually

but puts a mucky XO
right where it shouldn't

and a higher XO can often be
of a simpler kind -- less muck

ie the VIFA P13 can XO to a suitable T
with a single cap,
and sounds best (IMHO)
when used so

My less conventional set
has a single cap
to bring the T in at 10k

Quote:

In the end it comes downto what your goal is.
wise words
from a wise man

dave

halojoy 19th January 2003 07:58 AM

thanks planet10 for your comments
 
thanks planet10
I have noticed your comments with real thoughts
I know you have very more real world practical experience
than I have

Especially that about not putting the XO-freq
within this important freq-band
which contains very valuable information for human ear

What you are saying, is that we should prefer
say 400 and 4000 XO
before 200 and 2000.

I will have this in mind, and do some practical tries
to see what I prefer.
I will have to try and find Mid that can work well
upto 3500-4000
With such a XO-freq, I will on the other hand
have a much wider choice on the tweeter
(need not so super low FS)

halo - can speak, but also listen


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