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Old 1st March 2008, 02:02 PM   #2621
dlr is offline dlr  United States
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Default Re: Re: Philips DVD Home Theater System HTS3455

Quote:
Originally posted by Alan Hope


This can be confirmed - ie do you think the bass is "deeper" enough to show up on a FR trace?

However - if the changes are similar to the EnABL effects I hear, then the "deeper / tighter / cleaner" may be that subjective but consistent EnABL effect that so many of us have heard - and that may be pretty much independent of the probably rather small FR changes.

Things seem to be moving - looking forward to these basic tests guys.
Amazing. Everyone is so quick to accept any and all anecdotal reports of single individuals when it's been proven by experts in the field of testing that the same person can report two entirely different responses to the identical system at two different times. These anecdotal reports have no validity. Of course, for there to be any meaning, there would have to be provable differences to be heard. There will not be for this. Much self-delusion, all tests sighted, absolutely zero in the way of valid test conditions nor is then even proof that there are differences to be heard. Nothing, but you all swallow it whole. In fact, just provide some unproven, unsubstantiated, unscientific, ill-setup test that is positive and the accolades begin anew, especially from Bud.

Congratulations go to anyone providing a positive report, even if cutup pieces of band-aids were used. At one time it was said that the enabl application had to be of a material that provided for faster speed-of-sound transmission through it. It was tied directly to BL and the speed-of-sound in the material was the key factor. I guess some "requirements" are only valid when needed to question the validity of a test that did not result in a glowing report.

This application on any non-driver surface is the exact equivalent of Tice clocks. Many swore that they, too, heard significant differences when the clock was plugged into the wall power socket. So many glowing reports were made. Of course, the improvement was claimed by those who believed to be much more pronounced when plugged into the a socket on the same circuit to which the system was connected. It supposedly worked if plugged into any one in the house, just with less effect. From what I read, nearly everyone here would believe that, too.

Dave
 
Old 1st March 2008, 02:42 PM   #2622
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Quote:
Originally posted by ronc
What bandwidth/sampling rate is the system setup for measuring? What is being transmitted by the transmitter? What is the sample rate on the receivers?

What bandwidth/sampling rate is the system setup for measuring? 300 hz to 12 Khz, rate is 1500 pps.

What is being transmitted by the transmitter? Sine or square.

Same as above. But either broad or narrow band.

Bud , looking at the energies involved a smoke layer would probably not provide any result. Besides i limit myself to three cigars/day.


I am normally set up for 300Khz to 20 Mhz, this may be a streach for my normal equipment, however we have O scopes.
ron

Fluid dynamics BL?

Gets my vote.
What I meant about "what is being transmitted" is laser? light? etc.

If 1500pps means 1500 scan passes per second, that's probably the highest frequency that can be measured, and it's getting pretty close to the piston mode of operation. If we look at when the patterns take effect, it's much higher frequencies than the piston mode of operation. Thus, for example, if we wish to catch a 4KHz cone breakup mode, it's necessary to be able to do 4000pps to catch it.
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Old 1st March 2008, 02:45 PM   #2623
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Default Re: Re: Re: Philips DVD Home Theater System HTS3455

Quote:
Originally posted by dlr


Amazing. Everyone is so quick to accept any and all anecdotal reports of single individuals when it's been proven by experts in the field of testing that the same person can report two entirely different responses to the identical system at two different times.

etc etc

Dave
Hi Dave,

Not quite, mate, ... just pointing out that the anecdotal effect described (deeper bass) is easy to confirm or refute by FR responses before / after. I only "accept" it as anecdotal - with all that you describe as being true of course - until somebody repeats what was done and publishes the 2 FR traces.

Also, mass hysteria is a real (fascinating - though also somewhat controversial) phenomenon. It usually displays itself as lots of people vomiting, fainting and the likes, but why should we not add "convinced of improved hifi sound" to that list?

But while a few are now trying to clarify all this, lets cut out these knee-jerk posts here and see what comes. I am a guarded "supporter", but also deeply sceptical, and certainly not immune to being unwittingly drawn in.

Cheers, Alan
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Old 1st March 2008, 03:20 PM   #2624
dlr is offline dlr  United States
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Default Re: Re: Re: Re: Philips DVD Home Theater System HTS3455

Quote:
Originally posted by Alan Hope
[B]

Hi Dave,

Not quite, mate, ... just pointing out that the anecdotal effect described (deeper bass) is easy to confirm or refute by FR responses before / after. I only "accept" it as anecdotal - with all that you describe as being true of course - until somebody repeats what was done and publishes the 2 FR traces.[B]
In fact, yes, for the paragraph that you left quoted. It has been proved that the same person may indeed have a different perception of exactly the same system at different times, even under identical conditions. This in indisputable and I believe it to be a factor in much of these anecdotal reports.

Once again, I'll post a link that provides a synopsis of some of the studies made by some of the most respected researchers in audio. Not one person made a single comment the first time. Makes me wonder if anyone took time to read any of it. Probably not, since it refutes so much of the "methodology" used here. If one truly wants to learn in the area of audio perception, this should be a requirement, especially for those here making the claims about ports and baffles as they do. This should be separated from drivers since it's easily proved that there is a change in frequency response, mechanism aside.

Toole and Olive - real research

There is also a factor that will make this even more difficult. Room conditions make any measurements in the frequency range problematic. In the absence of a true anechoic chamber or a large, quiet outdoor setup with raised platform or in-ground 2-pi conditions, changes made to a port must be measured as a close-mic setup at the port. Whatever changes are made, even IF they were significant, would very possibly not show up due to the mic position. I have even less confidence in the ability of the few here who would make tests of this nature, due to the increased degree of difficulty. This is in the area of significant room influence, not easily handled for testing of this nature.

Quote:

Also, mass hysteria is a real (fascinating - though also somewhat controversial) phenomenon. It usually displays itself as lots of people vomiting, fainting and the likes, but why should we not add "convinced of improved hifi sound" to that list?
Absolutely. Expectation of improvement can be a powerful influence. You seem to be practically the only one acknowledging this.

Quote:

But while a few are now trying to clarify all this, lets cut out these knee-jerk posts here and see what comes. I am a guarded "supporter", but also deeply sceptical, and certainly not immune to being unwittingly drawn in.
Cheers, Alan
I consider much of the proponents post as "knee-jerk" since so often it is a refutation of known, valid measurement procedures or is a direct challenge to those who have spent literally years studying and measuring. Why no "knee-jerk" comments when it comes from the other side? No, I'll say my piece, whether considered by some to be knee-jerk or not. Ridiculous is ridiculous, regardless of sincerity.

BTW, what's knee-jerk? Was it the part about the changing requirements clearly evident throughout the thread? It's significant in its absence. What's your take on the large number of inconsistencies, of which this is but one? Consider at first that the FR was declared to be not influenced at all. Not one proponent challenged this, either.

Dave
 
Old 1st March 2008, 03:41 PM   #2625
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Some just make the best of what they have, others have to wait until all the horses are lined up. Just different approaches in doing things.
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Old 1st March 2008, 03:45 PM   #2626
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Default Re: Re: Re: Re: Philips DVD Home Theater System HTS3455

Quote:
Originally posted by Alan Hope


... just pointing out that the anecdotal effect described (deeper bass) is easy to confirm
Cheers, Alan


I might suggest that T/S parameters of the driver in the box before and after would clearly show if there were indeed deeper bass. On the other hand, deeper bass could arise simply from moving the speaker or a slight change in listening position. This is why closely controlled experiments, both objective and subjective are required.

But what continues to amaze me it that Bud is quick to accept anything offering positive support for treatment, like his 20 year old discussion with Ned N., even though he apparently claims not to know even what Ned was talking about, not even a clue.

But Bud is no dummy. The one thing I will say is that he clearly understands that the longer this thread continues the longer his name is in the spotlight. Of course, once the light burns out there won't be much to argue about and Enable will drift back into the shadows again. For that, the commentary, pro or anti, only extends the life. The long term judge of the treatment is time. Time always gets it right.
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Old 1st March 2008, 04:01 PM   #2627
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Default Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Philips DVD Home Theater System HTS3455

Quote:
Originally posted by john k...



But Bud is no dummy. The one thing I will say is that he clearly understands that the longer this thread continues the longer his name is in the spotlight.

...are you playing psychoanalyst, or do you just get a kick out of putting other people down?

I find it odd that you and dlr indignantly bid farewell to this thread at least once a week... only to show up the next day. Why are you helping to keep the thread that so needs to die on top of the forum?


...maybe you have a need to be in the spotlight?
 
Old 1st March 2008, 04:11 PM   #2628
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John/Dave,

I think the two of you were offered free drivers to demo. How are your listening tests going?
 
Old 1st March 2008, 04:37 PM   #2629
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Quote:
Originally posted by staggerlee
John/Dave,

I think the two of you were offered free drivers to demo. How are your listening tests going?
I rejected the offer because after coming to some agreement in the discussion here (on the form) Bud reverted back to claming what we had agreed upon as being not relevant was suddenly relevant again. His constant flip flopping lead me to conclude that what I heard and any correlation between what I heard and what I might measured would be deemed irrelevant if it did not fit Bud's preconceived notions as to what is going on.
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Old 1st March 2008, 04:52 PM   #2630
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Quote:
Originally posted by john k...


I rejected the offer because after coming to some agreement in the discussion here (on the form) Bud reverted back to claming what we had agreed upon as being not relevant was suddenly relevant again. His constant flip flopping lead me to conclude that what I heard and any correlation between what I heard and what I might measured would be deemed irrelevant if it did not fit Bud's preconceived notions as to what is going on.
Fair enough.

Still though, seems like there is only one way you can know for sure.
If you were to hear them, then you could reject them with absolute authority.
 

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