Yeah I agree what most people hear when it comes to punchy bass occurs above 50Hz.
Just want to give an accurate description what the speaker can actually do ie it's not just limited to 50Hz.
Edit: Interestingly enough though, very few speakers reproduce that region accurately. The notes tend to get compressed and not representative of real instruments in that region.
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Wonderful! Somehow this post got lost amongst everything else.
How did you get measured in room to fall within +-3db? Usually, there are larger peaks and troughs.
How did you get measured in room to fall within +-3db? Usually, there are larger peaks and troughs.
My Biflexes don't have the metal dustcap. I treated the cones with some lacquer. Here is a three way with bass corner horn and ribbon. This system did some things very well. Never had the 803 drivers.
The TAD 1201 is an example of a driver that is superior to the altec 15's in front horns. They can be really great - My pair has one shattered cone. I need another spare 16 ohm to have a set
The K33 works fine for small folded mid bass like the Belle, not hifi in my experiance but fine for a PAThe Tannoys can be the-end-all I think. Been listening to a pair of 12" in front horns for months and don't have any inclination to change
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believe the same... especially with jazz music in mid-bass (and upper bass as said): dynamic gap are huge and fast (piano, trumpett, drums and full of micro informations (I'm less puzzled with rock, maybe because how discs are produced ?). I suspect classical music to isten to Opera and some XX° classical music than the needs are the same but with a lower bass need that maybe hide the mid-bass détails and listening because our rooms (room modes ?)... Most of the time the solution could come from a compression in an horn for the upper mid-bass... but it's too complicate, expensive and not WAFy !Any link or shematic somewhere of your OB please ? width & heigth of the open baffle ? Did you EQ with active stuffs ? Or is it full passive ? I looked also what J Gerhradt made in his MPL thread but also follow with great interrest the Lynn's developpement
@ POOH, what is the load type and volume choosed for the TAD in your setup please ?
Sorry a bit OT, but seems there is a wild view pattern of opinions and testimonials in this thread ... that's great !
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@ POOH, what is the load type and volume choosed for the TAD in your setup please ?
Sorry a bit OT, but seems there is a wild view pattern of opinions and testimonials in this thread ... that's great !
I had them in Edgar 80 flare tractrix horns, the back chamber started at 2 liters or so and ended up being around the size of the back of the driver. The smaller the better - I used a sand/expandable foam mixture to get it that small. In a bigger horn with a slower flare you may want to go a bit bigger to start out.
I've tried quite a few things including digital eq, active crossovers with biamping, passive crossovers.
And many different baffle arangements. I like wings that fold back at an angle not directly back parrallel with each other and shaped a bit like a triangle not perfectly square or rectangle. The wings only go up as high as the bottom 15 inch woofer.
Dimensions are bigger than Lowther USA SOB but smaller than LOB.
And many different baffle arangements. I like wings that fold back at an angle not directly back parrallel with each other and shaped a bit like a triangle not perfectly square or rectangle. The wings only go up as high as the bottom 15 inch woofer.
Dimensions are bigger than Lowther USA SOB but smaller than LOB.
If by that you mean they don't have the cone cry and nasty breakup modes of most 15 inch woofers, I will agree. If you want a woofer that sounds like a loudspeaker, the 416 and 515 are not for you. They don't have the typical woofer coloration that many people like.
The altecs have nasty break up and cone cry, I don't see your point. I can't imagine a woofer without those characteristics. Do you have an example? It's the nature of the beast. My point is they are no better than some modern 15's - for example the Celestion 1530 LF Pressed Chassis / Ferrite - TF1530 - Celestion - Guitar, Bass & Pro Audio Speakers that sounds "less like a loudspeaker" than the 416 or 515 It's also less expensive and can be had a a zillion on line outlets.
It's also less expensive and can be had a a zillion on line outlets.Well , I'm not selling mine (Altecs ) .They may not be the end of all things but they do well in most applications .
Pooh , what kind of horn are you using with your Tannoy? I assume you have 12" REd . Did you update crossover ? I have little spruced up EV aristocrat enclosures and a pair of Oris 150 horns somebody used to horn load a woofer . So he cut of the throat to approx 12" diameter and mounted a collar. Many times I thought of hauling them from the attic of my old place and trying that combination but it would meant a long trip and more junk in the house. Maybe I should do it before some accidental brick land on my had or texting behind the wheel babe will run me over ....That actually happened to me recently , thankfully she was driving really slow ...
Pooh , what kind of horn are you using with your Tannoy? I assume you have 12" REd . Did you update crossover ? I have little spruced up EV aristocrat enclosures and a pair of Oris 150 horns somebody used to horn load a woofer . So he cut of the throat to approx 12" diameter and mounted a collar. Many times I thought of hauling them from the attic of my old place and trying that combination but it would meant a long trip and more junk in the house. Maybe I should do it before some accidental brick land on my had or texting behind the wheel babe will run me over ....That actually happened to me recently , thankfully she was driving really slow ...
POOH,
I'm with you on the smaller rear chamber on a horn as you are speaking of. It does help the loading below the normal horn cutoff frequency. I have always used a formula originally developed by Paul Klipsch. Off the top of my head I don't want to put it up here, don't want to get it wrong and steer someone wrong. Usually it is a very small volume behind the driver itself, I use that with my midrange cone horn and the driver barely fits inside the rear chamber.
I'm with you on the smaller rear chamber on a horn as you are speaking of. It does help the loading below the normal horn cutoff frequency. I have always used a formula originally developed by Paul Klipsch. Off the top of my head I don't want to put it up here, don't want to get it wrong and steer someone wrong. Usually it is a very small volume behind the driver itself, I use that with my midrange cone horn and the driver barely fits inside the rear chamber.
The 416s, 515s we normally refer to are wide BW mid-bass horn drivers, which the TF1530 clearly is not, so the Altec's would be 'shouty' in comparison in a non horn app if not accounted for in the XO design, but it needs to be compared to the 515E that's designed for wide range vented cab alignments where I imagine it would be a different 'story'.
The Celestion would certainly win on price alone of course, but has a significantly cheaper basket, higher Fs, weaker motor as the trade-off, though whether either has an audibly useful superiority up in the driver's TL, breakup modes BW is yet to be determined AFAIK, so as always, 'horses for courses', i.e. use what best fits the needs of the app.
WRT actually audibly superior drivers to the 416s, 515s we normally refer to, a Goto and all the original field coil drivers I've auditioned are the only 15" that sounded 'sweeter' to me, but the few that I got to audition with an XO, I couldn't tell any difference, so can't justify the many times higher cost of these [now] rare drivers.
On a related 'note', where I noticed a difference even XO'd was comparing the 12" 414 to an early WE field coil apparently designed for radio apps that had a usable BW to ~12,500 Hz!, so know of any current 12" drivers with anywhere near this kind of performance?
GM
On a lighter note, here's an entertaining post by industry veteran Morinix.
The moldy old Marantz/Audio Research line stage has pointless coupling caps thrown at it willy-nilly (and tantalums at that!) with a FET follower to finish what the cathode-follower couldn't accomplish.
I particularly like the part about dowsing the "polarized" resistors. As anyone whose ever cut open a resistor knows, they're made with little spiral traces of carbon or high-resistance metal deposited on a ceramic core. Turn 'em around, and one end is the same as the other, except for the printing on the case.
Capacitors do have an outer layer that's connected to one lead, which gives a tiny amount of self-shielding. They're also a little bit microphonic; you can be verify this by polarizing them (try 10 volts), exposing them to sound through a cardboard tube, and FFT'ing the voltage on the cap. They're basically low quality condenser microphones; fortunately, the sensitivity to sound and vibration is pretty low ... but not zero. Good reason to get the passive crossover out of the speaker enclosure, or go active, if that's your thing.
The moldy old Marantz/Audio Research line stage has pointless coupling caps thrown at it willy-nilly (and tantalums at that!) with a FET follower to finish what the cathode-follower couldn't accomplish.
I particularly like the part about dowsing the "polarized" resistors. As anyone whose ever cut open a resistor knows, they're made with little spiral traces of carbon or high-resistance metal deposited on a ceramic core. Turn 'em around, and one end is the same as the other, except for the printing on the case.
Capacitors do have an outer layer that's connected to one lead, which gives a tiny amount of self-shielding. They're also a little bit microphonic; you can be verify this by polarizing them (try 10 volts), exposing them to sound through a cardboard tube, and FFT'ing the voltage on the cap. They're basically low quality condenser microphones; fortunately, the sensitivity to sound and vibration is pretty low ... but not zero. Good reason to get the passive crossover out of the speaker enclosure, or go active, if that's your thing.
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Lynn,
Incredible story of the BS in the high end audio field. Same goes for all those obscene priced interconnect and speaker wires. I have to tell you the same is so true in the capacitor end of things in high end. I knew a manufacturer who made some of these very expensive audiophile branded caps, they were exactly the same as his production caps that sold for pennies but with fancy wrappers and even stranded lead outs, totally bogus claims are made for these. It goes to show how you can take peoples money by making a fancy package and telling a great story. I got bags of those fancy caps for a couple of dollars per 100, they were polypro caps with 100V rating and I used them in crossovers. Won't put up the actual name on them but believe me you would know the names in an instant.
Incredible story of the BS in the high end audio field. Same goes for all those obscene priced interconnect and speaker wires. I have to tell you the same is so true in the capacitor end of things in high end. I knew a manufacturer who made some of these very expensive audiophile branded caps, they were exactly the same as his production caps that sold for pennies but with fancy wrappers and even stranded lead outs, totally bogus claims are made for these. It goes to show how you can take peoples money by making a fancy package and telling a great story. I got bags of those fancy caps for a couple of dollars per 100, they were polypro caps with 100V rating and I used them in crossovers. Won't put up the actual name on them but believe me you would know the names in an instant.
Yeah, that was the big change in the Eighties. The Reagan/Thatcher/Wall Street "let's make money fast" ethos got into what had been a sleepy, low-profile, low-profit industry. I point the finger at the Big Two magazines, their coterie of reviewers, and a small, closed circle of manufacturers who always got positive reviews that appeared on the covers of the magazines.
People in the industry knew perfectly well what was going on, but didn't dare cross the magazines, so the buying public was none the wiser. Not that different than what was going on with the loud TV "pump and dump" stock manipulators before the 1987 (and 2008) crash.
It was a good scam while it lasted. Unfortunately, it burned out a whole generation of audiophiles, who eventually gave up and switched to home theater and stopped there.
Part of the social reason for the tube revival in the late Eighties, followed by the triode revival in the early Nineties (in the USA) was a desire to get away from the madness in the mainstream high-end, which had become a fashion industry.
People in the industry knew perfectly well what was going on, but didn't dare cross the magazines, so the buying public was none the wiser. Not that different than what was going on with the loud TV "pump and dump" stock manipulators before the 1987 (and 2008) crash.
It was a good scam while it lasted. Unfortunately, it burned out a whole generation of audiophiles, who eventually gave up and switched to home theater and stopped there.
Part of the social reason for the tube revival in the late Eighties, followed by the triode revival in the early Nineties (in the USA) was a desire to get away from the madness in the mainstream high-end, which had become a fashion industry.
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Lynn,
Yes that and Bose and their crazy claims for there mini speakers and the industry was toast. I just tested my cone driver just to make a file to send to someone to see if it could be used with his old software. I didn't do much to set up the test correctly but just placed the cone in the enclosure with no xo and put the mic a meter away and gave it one volt of input to the driver. The bandwidth was 20hz to 10Khz before dropping off like a rock. The bottom end was surprising as I never though it would have output that low, actually the bottom was accentuated if anything, something I am going to have to look at. It would make a pretty good full ranger I must say but I never considered it before. But a usable 20hz from a 6 1/2" cone was more than i would ever think would happen, it was quite the surprise to me. I never used it below 35 hz myself. Perhaps it was just an anomaly but it was truly there in the Clio measurement. Now I just need to make up a story and sell it to all those full range fans for some big bucks, NOT!
Yes that and Bose and their crazy claims for there mini speakers and the industry was toast. I just tested my cone driver just to make a file to send to someone to see if it could be used with his old software. I didn't do much to set up the test correctly but just placed the cone in the enclosure with no xo and put the mic a meter away and gave it one volt of input to the driver. The bandwidth was 20hz to 10Khz before dropping off like a rock. The bottom end was surprising as I never though it would have output that low, actually the bottom was accentuated if anything, something I am going to have to look at. It would make a pretty good full ranger I must say but I never considered it before. But a usable 20hz from a 6 1/2" cone was more than i would ever think would happen, it was quite the surprise to me. I never used it below 35 hz myself. Perhaps it was just an anomaly but it was truly there in the Clio measurement. Now I just need to make up a story and sell it to all those full range fans for some big bucks, NOT!
Lynn,
I've been looking at both Kickstarter an Indigogo but it seems a bit harder than just putting something up there. I wish I knew all the ins and outs to it, I'm trying to learn enough to do a successful campaign. I wish I had enough knowledge in that area, it takes more than just a nice rendering, they want video and that gets out of my area of expertise. I keep being told that I need to get bloggers to talk about the product to create a buzz but don't know where to do that for audio, who to talk to and all that. It is going to be a lot of work but that is the plan, just want to do it right.
ps. The cost to do one speaker enclosure in 3D photo polymer was quoted at 9K$, not even a pair. I've been thinking of doing some modeling in soft tooling to do it, the 3D printing is not as cheap as people are lead to believe. I've done some other projects for people and a couple of gram parts cost over $100.00 to have made and that was a good price compared to others.
I've been looking at both Kickstarter an Indigogo but it seems a bit harder than just putting something up there. I wish I knew all the ins and outs to it, I'm trying to learn enough to do a successful campaign. I wish I had enough knowledge in that area, it takes more than just a nice rendering, they want video and that gets out of my area of expertise. I keep being told that I need to get bloggers to talk about the product to create a buzz but don't know where to do that for audio, who to talk to and all that. It is going to be a lot of work but that is the plan, just want to do it right.
ps. The cost to do one speaker enclosure in 3D photo polymer was quoted at 9K$, not even a pair. I've been thinking of doing some modeling in soft tooling to do it, the 3D printing is not as cheap as people are lead to believe. I've done some other projects for people and a couple of gram parts cost over $100.00 to have made and that was a good price compared to others.
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