Beyond the Ariel

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That's a tough one to answer. A lot of pop and rock is blatantly artificial. It thrives on the sound of multiple big pro drivers powered by large amps and 1000s of watts. That is going to be difficult to reproduce with anything lesser.

But I have to say that for me, in the proper enclosure, nothing beats the 416 or 515. They are clean, dynamic, light where needed, heavy where called for. They do the best job of reproducing natural sounds, be that an upright bass, a djembe, or a steam train crossing a bridge.

IME, a lot of people love hyped up bass. Why not? It's fun. :) Big car stereos and massive EDM sound systems come to mind, as does reggae music. These are the kinds of things that thrive on sounds made by big, heavy woofers with tons of power. The system becomes the instrument itself.

It's a different approach. The Alec woofers (to me) excel at reproducing natural sounds big and small, that's why I like them. They are not what I'd use if installing an EDM club.
 
InOtIn,

I'd say anything that is strong and dynamic in the 100-400Hz band. I've had several setups with FR drivers in horns that where really good on most, if not all, kinds of music.
A Lowther PM4 in a good front horn paired with a dynamically capable bass system is a surprisingly versatile music making system. The key for me is dynamic consistency over as much of the frequency range as possible!
I'm now on a quest to see if a setup with compression driver horns can be equally or more satisfying and this thread is a true inspiration!

BR,
Anders
 
I've got a question for Gary, Lynn and everyone else out there who have experience with the 416-8B.

:)

All the 416 and 515's I have sound soft and lack detail, are compressed - they seem to smear the leading edge. Horn loading the 515 takes it up a few levels but there are so many better choices.

Of all the Altecs I have I like the 15" biflex on an open baffle topped with ribbon and subwoofers best
 
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I've got a question for Gary, Lynn and everyone else out there who have experience with the 416-8B.

I know at least Gary and Lynn are big fans of classical but I'm not so how do these driver fair on other types of music? I listen to all kinds and want a midwoofer that can deliver the goods on everything from heavy metal, pop, blues and jazz. I'm sick and tired of, and having lived too long with, speakers that sound great on some Chesky recordings but that fall apart when Maiden, Dio or GnR gets cued up (previous Maggies best case in point). I want drivers that allow me to rock out and dance most of the time while still sounding amazing on Thessink, Barber, Cassidy or Mo.

Spare me the "best drivers give you what's on the CD mate and if that sounds crap well then it's crap" rant, please. I'm getting too old for the objective camp me thinks... :)

416's can't do PUNCH (you in the gut). I know that's what you want. The Altecs are wonderful for tone, and bass sustained notes. The only way to get the PUNCH is with some variation of reaction-forced canceling woofers.
With this application, there is a no-loss-of energy type of dynamics that no other system can produce. It's only limited by your space/budget/and/or imagination. A PPSL device is one of the ways to do this. A pair of professional 12's or (better yet) 15's per side can accomplish this, and can do it without insane amounts of power. In my system, 4 watts will blow you through the back door !
 
Scott L & InOtIn, what are please the Fhz involved here in your discussion ? Below 300 Hz ?

Advantage of an 808 Altec box for the front loaded horn above 120 hz ? (Pano's post)

It's always if the Fhz (around > 80 hz & < 500) between bass and mids would be hard to reproduce...both lack of clearness, détails and transcient for dynamic gaps (micro dynamic trade off)!

Maybe those 15" climbs too high ? Advantage again to a Vott design with the front air loaded horn for higher mid-bass FR while having snapp with the vented below ?

Are there modified Altec Vott design which goes below 60 hz ?
 
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I've got a question for Gary, Lynn and everyone else out there who have experience with the 416-8B.

I know at least Gary and Lynn are big fans of classical but I'm not so how do these driver fair on other types of music? I listen to all kinds and want a midwoofer that can deliver the goods on everything from heavy metal, pop, blues and jazz. I'm sick and tired of, and having lived too long with, speakers that sound great on some Chesky recordings but that fall apart when Maiden, Dio or GnR gets cued up (previous Maggies best case in point). I want drivers that allow me to rock out and dance most of the time while still sounding amazing on Thessink, Barber, Cassidy or Mo.

Spare me the "best drivers give you what's on the CD mate and if that sounds crap well then it's crap" rant, please. I'm getting too old for the objective camp me thinks... :)

Fair question. First off, all of the large-format 15" driver + horn systems have 10 to 15 dB more dynamic range, headroom, lower IM distortion, etc. than standard audiophile speakers. That particularly includes magnetic and electrostatic planars, which have typical efficiencies in the low-to-mid Eighties, and will fail if driven with enough power to reach beyond 105 dB. Most of the planars I've heard disintegrate sonically above 100 dB SPL, but are nice and clear at 85 dB SPL or less.

Large-format studio-monitor dynamics are well beyond the 6~8" cone + dome speakers mentioned in the previous post. Panel speakers usually have less dynamic range than conventional cone + dome speakers; people don't buy them for dynamics, but qualities of transparency, freedom from box coloration, spatial qualities, etc.

But ... if you want to realistically reproduce full physical impact of the rock-concert experience (say, within 50 to 100 feet of the stage), then a large-format 15" driver + horn system may not be enough. To go further, you need a domesticated PA system. That's a whole different breed of cat, one that lives in the world of arrays of 15" drivers or multiway all-horn setups. What would you need for a 500-seat theater with high-quality sound? Pretty much that.

PA/Sound reinforcement is not my thing, but from reading the forum, the Unity horns have the best balance of sound quality and sheer power, and are superbly engineered. There are also other professional systems that are well regarded. This is well past DHT/triode territory and demands a stack of serious transistor amps and pro-grade DSP processing.

Be aware that realistic rock-concert SPL's are a danger to hearing, and I can say from experience that tinnitus is a lot worse than the mere loss of hearing above 15 kHz. It's now receded to a subjective 30 dB or so, but it was considerably louder when it first arrived a few years ago.

Hope this helps a bit.
 
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There's probably very few recordings that capture the live sound of plywood pa bass cabs and wooden floors shaking themselves to bits - at least my memory of it from long ago. Reproducing this is what bass resolution is all about. Just the same as double bass. Horn loading the upper bass helps.

POOH, care to list a few of the current production 15" drivers that do it better than 416 / 515 with horn loading? I use horn loaded Vitavox K15/40 - which is back in production but you would need a mortgage.
 
On rock/metal/EDM/pop etc... I think it's worth mentioning that, to me (and I suspect I'm not alone), these types of recordings are in some respects a breed apart, and need not necessarily be viewed the same way as classical and acoustic jazz as regards realistic reproduction. Recordings like this represent to me a different kind of art, one that is informed as much by the skill of the producer and engineers as the skill of the musicians who wrote the songs and played the instruments, and I believe it is a mistake to believe that the proper way to reproduce them with speakers is to pursue perfect reproduction of some mythical performance, SPLs and all, that in fact never existed outside the control room. At their best they can deliver a hyper-real musical experience with evocative presentation that would be simply impossible in a live performance, and while the goals in reproduction might be largely similar I truly believe that a satisfying end result can be obtained without insisting on reproducing the concert or dance club experience in their entireties.

With all due respect to Lynn and others who have put so much energy, and shared so much, in the undeniably laudable goal of reproducing acoustic musical events as completely and accurately as possible given the tools we have at hand.
 
There's probably very few recordings that capture the live sound of plywood pa bass cabs and wooden floors shaking themselves to bits - at least my memory of it from long ago. Reproducing this is what bass resolution is all about. Just the same as double bass. Horn loading the upper bass helps.

POOH, care to list a few of the current production 15" drivers that do it better than 416 / 515 with horn loading? I use horn loaded Vitavox K15/40 - which is back in production but you would need a mortgage.

A pair of quality 15" drivers per channel will get you close to where you want to be without getting crazy about it.
I built a speaker with 2x 15" and 8x12" drivers hehehe. You don't need to go that crazy
 
To me the reality is that in a live rock concert there really isn't this low bass that everyone is talking about. I have been sitting at the console at to many shows to believe that at all. Believe me the 60hz bass cut is always punched in, otherwise you would have horrid bass feedback happening. Bass is boosted in the 60-70 hz range which gives you that punch in the gut feeling from the bass guitar and the kick drum, this is the reality. JBL and everyone else use to do this with their speakers all the time, bump up that area and let it roll off below.

This is very counter to what you want with acoustic or orchestral recording, but they are very different from rock and pop music. Hip hop is pure noise on the bottom end, overdone and so bass heavy to sound completely different than rock music, the old car audio bass buzz that this crowd must have thought was what music was supposed to sound like.

This goes back to what Lynn is saying, the current design for the Beyond the Arial speaker is intended for, it is not a rock and roll speaker system.

An 18" or 15" for the bass in a reflex enclosure, a good 10" to cover the mid bass and then a horn on top and you got yourself a rock and roll system.
 
To me the reality is that in a live rock concert there really isn't this low bass that everyone is talking about. I have been sitting at the console at to many shows to believe that at all. Believe me the 60hz bass cut is always punched in, otherwise you would have horrid bass feedback happening. Bass is boosted in the 60-70 hz range which gives you that punch in the gut feeling from the bass guitar and the kick drum, this is the reality. JBL and everyone else use to do this with their speakers all the time, bump up that area and let it roll off below.

An 18" or 15" for the bass in a reflex enclosure, a good 10" to cover the mid bass and then a horn on top and you got yourself a rock and roll system.


I agree although I'd probably say it can get as low as 40Hz.
Most fine bass players (myself included :p) prefer 2x10" or 4x10" for the uncompressed dynamic punch, single 15s don't give you that and multiple 15s are just to big to lug around and don't tend accurately produce all the harmonic detail in the mid bass that multiple 10s give you.
 
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2 Pico,
I agree that for the bass player things are different than what is coming out of the PA. If you are miking the bass cabinet it will have a low pass cut on the PA side of things and won't be pushed up hard, it only causes problems. That low bass is coming off the stage from the bass enclosure, not the PA.

4-10" speakers will have about the same surface area of 1-15" driver but you'll have 4 large voicecoils instead of one and you don't exactly want a low distortion speaker on the bass guitar, you want those overtones that come from an overdriven speaker. I've done some really clean bass enclosures for jazz bass players that sound much more like a stand-up bass but that is the rare bass player that would appreciate that type of sound.
 
All the 416 and 515's I have sound soft and lack detail, are compressed - they seem to smear the leading edge. Horn loading the 515 takes it up a few levels but there are so many better choices.

Of all the Altecs I have I like the 15" biflex on an open baffle topped with ribbon and subwoofers best

15 biflex is surprisingly nice on OB although that metal dust cover needs some attention (paint, felt dots or just replacement with treated paper one) , mine measure around 0.7 QTS. It is still cheap since the official altec's board opinion is that it's an ill conceived concept , only Lampizator champions that driver and even he is bowing under market-ing pressures and endorses a regular cruup now . I was underwhelmed with 515 in small enclosure , they Are soft. I thought that my samples are little worn out... I really liked TAD TM1201 in Martins 202 Hz Horn , fast like a razor blade even though it is totally not recommended application by hornresp folks. My favorite Altec is 803A . Hard paper suspension 40-60 Hz fs and tone to die for. Probably on par with $$$ original 515 with phenolic spider.I used them in Klipshorn enclosures for a proper midbass . No more booming , muffled sound of K-33-E . Best midbass I ever heard . simply sensational.
I'm baffled by my 10" Tannoy Reds. They kind of sound ordinary with all my amps, not bad but nothing like when I hooked them up to restored Leaks TL50 plus. (which were mediocre with all other speakers I had at home at that time) . With Leaks those old Tannoys simply gained 3rd dimension and music just flew into the space . I've always disregarded this synergy ********
as one crap masking the failings of another crap but there was no denying something synergistic was going on. I could not keep TL50+ so I'm back to usual plum plim plom and cheap wine.
 
speakers used: listening to reproduced music ?

I agree although I'd probably say it can get as low as 40Hz.
Most fine bass players (myself included :p) prefer 2x10" or 4x10" for the uncompressed dynamic punch, single 15s don't give you that and multiple 15s are just to big to lug around and don't tend accurately produce all the harmonic detail in the mid bass that multiple 10s give you.

Hi there 2p: When listening to reproduced music: which speakers do you use? Often stated here at Diyaudio is the concept that a speaker system should be able to faithfully reproduce all types of music, rather than be tailored for a specific type...classical, jazz, blues, folk, country, rock, etc. Each general category of music can be further broken down into sub-groups of very different sounds, leading to each individual tailoring their speaker system to their own feelings/settings. ...regards, Michael
 
I've been using Audio Nirvana Full Range in open baffle with great success in regards to what I demand in a loudspeaker.
Some people like extended didgeridoo distorted bass, but I'm after bass that accurately produces musical notes (with full dynamic effect).
I find open baffle and quality high efficiency drivers do that for me, but a single 15 is not enough for my liking, there is very noticeable improvement going with dual 15s (decent quality ones) on the music I listen too (rock, funk, fusion, jazz, and a bit of everything else)

Edit: Before that I used a 2.5 way using scanspeak drivers in a regular vented cabinet. I much prefer open baffle with high efficiency drivers.
 
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I also play bass guitar with lots of percussive elements and staccato plucks. My favorite bass cab to date consists of 15", 6", and a 1" compression driver.

My domesticated pa consists of 4x18, 4x12, 2x3" diaphragm compression drivers. No lack of "punch" in any octave.

My next bass cab will use 12's and a waveguide. Best overall compromise in output and size.
 
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What you describe is mid-bass not a bass which by the nature of the beast is rather slow and not punchy at all . Music you prefer rarely has anything below 50 Hz and the punch you describe is 80-100 hz. Nothing wrong with liking what ones likes just a matter of clarification so we all are on the same page.