John Wood did exceptional work, my favorite artist he recorded is Nick Drake. A nice article/interview with John here: John Wood: From Pink Floyd To The McGarrigles
I have heard piano through a sound reinforcement system.
It is immediately obvious that it is live as opposed to recorded.
How about you?
It is not the speakers, but in the recording somehow.
Of Falk/rock music, Pentangle is one of my favorites. I have both their LP's and CD's.
Joshua,
What I take that myhrrhleine is saying is that with a live piano player playing through a PA system that is was obvious that you were listening to a real live piano and not a recording being played back through that system. Even if the frequency response isn't perfect you can instantly even blindfolded tell that a live performance was what you are hearing. I have to agree that the changes that give us a clue that we are not listening to a live performance is in the recording chain and not necessarily in the playback system. Given an excellent direct to tape or disk recording with the right speakers it would be hard to tell it is not live except for the subtle tape noise that most would identify and give it away. I myself think that both horn loaded systems and direct radiators can reproduce this type of sound quality, it is all in the details. On the other hand I have heard more crappy sounding horn loaded systems than great sounding horn loaded systems. Yes horns can sound excellent but at the same time I think that many times the person creating the system has not a clue how to make a horn loaded system sound excellent.
What I take that myhrrhleine is saying is that with a live piano player playing through a PA system that is was obvious that you were listening to a real live piano and not a recording being played back through that system. Even if the frequency response isn't perfect you can instantly even blindfolded tell that a live performance was what you are hearing. I have to agree that the changes that give us a clue that we are not listening to a live performance is in the recording chain and not necessarily in the playback system. Given an excellent direct to tape or disk recording with the right speakers it would be hard to tell it is not live except for the subtle tape noise that most would identify and give it away. I myself think that both horn loaded systems and direct radiators can reproduce this type of sound quality, it is all in the details. On the other hand I have heard more crappy sounding horn loaded systems than great sounding horn loaded systems. Yes horns can sound excellent but at the same time I think that many times the person creating the system has not a clue how to make a horn loaded system sound excellent.
I'm using autoformers by Dave Slagle. From the amplifier's point of view, the crossover consists of a 3rd order filter, a shunt resistor, the auto former, and finally the 745 with its Zobel. The shunt resistor is important, partly because it keeps the large impedance peak in the attenuation band from acting against the crossover. If I were using active crossovers it might be different. I don't think that a resistive L-pad would work in this approach, even if the resistors on their own are more transparent.
Possibly this is what he meant.
However, if this is the case, it doesn’t contradict my statement, that AFAIK, 'no existing reproduction system in the world can sound (to an experienced listener) like a real, live concert, or even like a real, live single instrument'.
In case I'm wrong here, I'm willing to travel to the end of the planet to hear it and see how it was done.
Joshua,
I think that it would really depend a lot on the type of music you were playing. I don't see a problem with reproducing a rock and roll concert through a playback system that would sound like a live concert, but now try and do that with a jazz ensemble or any acoustic instrument and then things get much more difficult.
Steven
I think that it would really depend a lot on the type of music you were playing. I don't see a problem with reproducing a rock and roll concert through a playback system that would sound like a live concert, but now try and do that with a jazz ensemble or any acoustic instrument and then things get much more difficult.
Steven
Hi Steven,
I spoke specifically about classical music and/or unamplified acoustic instruments and human voices. Though I didn't write it on my last message, I wrote it on other messages in this thread.
I also didn't refer to possible 'convincing sound', neither did I refer to the ease or difficulty in doing it.
I'm stating that to the best of my knowledge it wasn't done and it cannot be done, as of today.
Joshua,
I don't disagree with you in general, but at the same time if you had a live jazz acoustical group playing through a PA system you could have a secondary PA in another room and I would not have much problem saying whether I was listening to a recording or a live band. I think what we all seem to agree upon is that trying to have this affect from a cd, record or tape is very difficult if not impossible to reproduce. So the real question in my eyes is why isn't it possible to recreate that same effect as listening in a second room to a PA and being able to identify that a live band is playing? Where in the chain are we really causing the distortions that we identify as playback from a recorded format?
I don't disagree with you in general, but at the same time if you had a live jazz acoustical group playing through a PA system you could have a secondary PA in another room and I would not have much problem saying whether I was listening to a recording or a live band. I think what we all seem to agree upon is that trying to have this affect from a cd, record or tape is very difficult if not impossible to reproduce. So the real question in my eyes is why isn't it possible to recreate that same effect as listening in a second room to a PA and being able to identify that a live band is playing? Where in the chain are we really causing the distortions that we identify as playback from a recorded format?
I've certainly heard this happen, constantly - I can recall a specific instance decades ago in a very well known music joint in Sydney, the Basement. The live band playing was fine, then they took a break, and switched over to a CD player. Atrocious!! The sound was hideous, the worst of the worst ...
Why? Because every music system is a complete chain of parts, from the raw input to the final speaker output - and all it needs is for one part to be lacking, and the final result is severely damaged, irrespective of the quality of the rest.
In the case of live music, the input is 'pure', by definition: the real thing, with microphone through preamp and then the mixing board. A CD, though, is via the the players circuitry, the DAC and line stage feeding to the mixer. Hardly any difference you might say, but it's enough: the damage has been done, and the PA volumes just exaggerate how mangled the sound now is.
The typical 'pro' playback device is pretty dreadful, from the POV of audio quality - little apparently has been done to shield the analogue circuitry from interference effects, and the results bellow and scream at you through the 'pro' speakers. When I was auditioning active monitors last year the quality of the digital playback was consistently disgusting, so I had to mentally bypass the poor quality of that, to try and assess how well the speakers in themselves were behaving ...
Frank,
Your last statement about powered speakers is exactly what brought me to this forum in the first place. I am still working towards the final product in my self powered speakers and it is the electronics side of the speaker that has been the most difficult part to finalize. I now have three different discrete amplifier boards I acquired here from two different people, one being Lazy Cat and the others from Harrison Audio. Initially I was just going to follow the norm and use monolithic amplifier chips but the more I dealt into what was going on the more I didn't like that approach as I would have to compromise the sound of the speakers I have worked so hard to develop. Yes it will cost more to use discrete amplifier circuits but I don't think I would be happy with the results otherwise or that I would grab the attention of my potential target audience with a me to sound. I haven't spent 10 years now working on perfecting the loudspeakers to compromise on the electronics side.
Your last statement about powered speakers is exactly what brought me to this forum in the first place. I am still working towards the final product in my self powered speakers and it is the electronics side of the speaker that has been the most difficult part to finalize. I now have three different discrete amplifier boards I acquired here from two different people, one being Lazy Cat and the others from Harrison Audio. Initially I was just going to follow the norm and use monolithic amplifier chips but the more I dealt into what was going on the more I didn't like that approach as I would have to compromise the sound of the speakers I have worked so hard to develop. Yes it will cost more to use discrete amplifier circuits but I don't think I would be happy with the results otherwise or that I would grab the attention of my potential target audience with a me to sound. I haven't spent 10 years now working on perfecting the loudspeakers to compromise on the electronics side.
Once again,
I'm referring to the reproduction chain of recording -> reproducing unamplified acoustic instruments and human voices. I'm referring only to the above, nothing else.
Once again:
AFAIK, no reproduction system in the world can imitate 'the real thing' (live concert of unamplified acoustic instruments and human voices) in such a way that when an experienced listener will enter the room blindfolded, one would be sure that one attends an actual live concert.
Please look at my above statement and see if you may have any reservations about it.
All sidetracking are irrelevant.
We cannot compare oranges to cows.
We cannot relate my above statement to 'a feeling' of attending amplified concert of any sort, nor to anything other than what the statement says.
Also, my above statement doesn't say why it is so, it doesn't relate to any technical aspect, like distortion.
As for the why, I doubt if any human being at present day have the full answer. I definitely don't have the full answer. All I know (in this respect) is what I hear.
Joshua,
Here I have to almost disagree with you. I have heard speakers more than once that could definitely reproduce the sound of say an acoustic guitar that did in fact sound so close to a live event it was amazing. But it is the exception to the rule, not the norm for sure. Yes a trained listener would know at some point it was not a live instrument but you would have to want to make that distinction, casually listening I don't think you would think that. Is this a common occurrence no, but where do we draw the line and say good enough? I was about to be tongue in cheek and make a reference to a Passover Matzo and one not made for Passover services and being able to tell the difference but to close to apples and apples!
Here I have to almost disagree with you. I have heard speakers more than once that could definitely reproduce the sound of say an acoustic guitar that did in fact sound so close to a live event it was amazing. But it is the exception to the rule, not the norm for sure. Yes a trained listener would know at some point it was not a live instrument but you would have to want to make that distinction, casually listening I don't think you would think that. Is this a common occurrence no, but where do we draw the line and say good enough? I was about to be tongue in cheek and make a reference to a Passover Matzo and one not made for Passover services and being able to tell the difference but to close to apples and apples!
I'm very curious about using transformers or autoformers for driver attenuation.
Gary Pimm and I had a brief discussion about this, but it didn't go much of anywhere.
What does it do good - and why?
Gary Pimm and I had a brief discussion about this, but it didn't go much of anywhere.
This is certainly necessary because of the impedance transform. But then what do you end up with? 1 resistor and 1 transformer. Is that really better than 2 good resistors in an L-Pad? Is it the increase in available current from the transformer attenuation vs resistor that helps? As much as I love transformer coupled circuits, I don't understand the advantages of driver attenuation via transformer.
What does it do good - and why?
Sorry, you and me are talking about two completely different things.
You speak about sound 'so close to a live event', while I speak about entering the room blindfolded and being utterly convinced that it is a live concert.
When you say: "Yes a trained listener would know at some point it was not a live instrument" – the two of us are in full agreement.
As for drawing a line about where it may be good enough – each to ones' own. It depends on many factors, including listening habits and experience with previous sound systems, as well as expectations and also budget, or finance resources.
However I find it useful not to aspire the impossible.
I enjoy listening to music on my present system. I know it can sound so much better, yet I'm limited by both experience and finances. At the same time, I know it wouldn't sound like 'the real thing', at least not in my present lifetime.
If you're aiming that highly I recommend you put a great deal of energy into investigating, sorting out the power supply side of things. Try and make the behaviour of the speakers as benign as possible with regard to how they draw current from the mains, even when they're running at peak volumes - minimise nasty current spikes, full of high frequency energy, rippling through the mains circuitry which in turn is feeding other devices - all the good work may be undone if other equipment in the room starts to misbehave because the active speakers are bad neighbours ....
What large impedance peak are we talking about here? The impedance peak at resonance or what. I personally have only seen matching transformers used in distributed sound system and not on simple two or three way systems. So are we now saying that in a properly designed network that the L-pad itself is an acoustic problem? I guess that would have more to do with the type of inductors used than anything else I can think of.