Don Keele did an objective study comparing horn to direct radiators some years back:
http://www.diy-audio.narod.ru/litr/Keele_1976-05_AES_Preprint_-_Efficiency_Horns_vs_DR.pdf.
He concluded that 4 direct radiators will match or beat an (UNfolded) horn of the same mouth/baffle size, and do so with less complexity and smaller enclosure size.
Once folding comes into play, direct radiators have the edge IMHO.
I'm by no means opposed to horns (nor is Keele). If the drivers chosen happen to be extremely expensive, or if you can only get two drivers (and can spare the room, time, effort and expense needed for a giant horn) I'd say go for it.
Hello,
That's a very old littérature. Many improvement have been made on horns and waveguides since that ancient time! (even at JBL...)
Best regards from Paris, France
Jean-Michel Le Cléac'h
Bad, man
Your really bad, man
When I bit this bug 41 years ago I had no idea !
Actually, to be more accurate, what I meant to say is the "last reference" speaker.
I still have drivers stored all over the place; driveritus !!
I think you're treading on clouds fella- this disease is terminal
Your really bad, man
When I bit this bug 41 years ago I had no idea !
Actually, to be more accurate, what I meant to say is the "last reference" speaker.
I still have drivers stored all over the place; driveritus !!
it seems to me that when you talk about horns you are considering something unmovable and possibly hidden. consider this one.
Wall of Sound Images
Or for extra headroom (much much more acoustic power than a large concert sound system), a pair of these large stadium speakers. A 40X15 degree CD horn. Radiating as if they were one source in time and space are 12, 18 inch horn loaded woofers, 32, 51/2 inch horn loaded mid drivers and 64 hf compression drivers.
You can literally walk into the horn (playing quietly of course)and you never hear any clue there is more than one driver, zero comb filtering.
best,
Tom
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The context being addressed is horns using large midbass cone drivers. Very very little has changed there.
-- Mark
If you want deep bass with low distortion to match up with your direct radiator speakers use multiple big sealed or vented cabinets.
If you want to match up low midrange and bass to your horn loaded compression driver use a front loaded midbass horn.
It's true then and now so you are correct.
some info http://www.hps4000.com/pages/special/woofer_distortion.pdf
If you want to match up low midrange and bass to your horn loaded compression driver use a front loaded midbass horn.
It's true then and now so you are correct.
some info http://www.hps4000.com/pages/special/woofer_distortion.pdf
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very good
Thank you for that !
And, I need to add one more detail which I have been leaving out:
The one Altec driver that is (short) horn loaded will be driven by a different amplifier than the one driving the 2 (or 4) augmenting 15's, BUT
at the same time being fed from the same output of the active crossover.
In this manner I can EQ the augmenting drivers without messing up the purity of the Altec.
Thank you for that !
And, I need to add one more detail which I have been leaving out:
The one Altec driver that is (short) horn loaded will be driven by a different amplifier than the one driving the 2 (or 4) augmenting 15's, BUT
at the same time being fed from the same output of the active crossover.
In this manner I can EQ the augmenting drivers without messing up the purity of the Altec.
To Tom Danley,
Seeing as all horns and waveguides follow the same rules no matter size, what of the diffraction effect from the edge of the very large enclosure you just showed. I am not talking about just the lowest frequency tied to mouth size but upper frequencies when they meet the edge of that enclosure? Do you have polar response plots on that monster of an enclosure?
Thanks,
Steven
Seeing as all horns and waveguides follow the same rules no matter size, what of the diffraction effect from the edge of the very large enclosure you just showed. I am not talking about just the lowest frequency tied to mouth size but upper frequencies when they meet the edge of that enclosure? Do you have polar response plots on that monster of an enclosure?
Thanks,
Steven
For deep, low distortion bass, it's good also to remember (or be aware of, if you weren't) Bag End: Bag End Loudspeakers 847 382 4550
for a completely different approach avoiding resonance entirely.
Hi guys
Kindhornman, the Speaker shown in the picture is too large / heavy for the company that takes our spherical measurements to measure at the moment and so we haven’t gotten the EASE models or CLF files for that one yet. When Pat Brown saw it at the trade show, he said “wow, I can’t measure that one”. Your right, horns all follow the same rules size only affects the frequency where various things occur. The best I can do is direct you to a smaller cabinet like the J-3 which has fewer drivers, these are what did most of the full range part of the videos I had linked from LSU. The CLF data file is not normally used in hifi and is a 3D data set but one option in the viewer is to look at the 2D polar plot for H and V at different frequencies. You can get the data file and viewer here;
J3 | Danley Sound Labs | Danley Sound Labs, Inc.
I did ask our software guy to take the CLF data for an SH-50 and plot that as a map which is more common in hifi, attached is the map for that speaker, the span is 30Hz to 16Khz, the color graduations are 3dB per color.
Pooh, I don’t have a figure for that one yet due to the size / weight problem I mentioned above.
What I can say is that this is intended to provide ‘hifi” sound out to the far side of a football stadium, here are a couple videos of it at the shop, use headphones.
Danley's J5-Caleb and Matterhorn at 600+ft. - YouTube
Danley's J5-Caleb Open Microphone at 195ft! - YouTube
So far as what is more powerful a horn or direct radiator, it depends.
Any driver will produce sound connected to any horn but if you’re talking about maximum acoustic power, once a horn is acoustically large enough and if one has drivers which are optimal for the job, a horn is very hard to impossible to beat.
A Tapped horn occupies sort of an in between area where the horn has less area than a regular horn, a TH812 for example is much more powerful than a vented box of the same cubic volume and frequency response..
Hi Pano, haha, to be honest, I have no idea what the price is, THAT is one cabinet I have not had in my living room and won’t have, it’s 10 feet tall.
Best,
Tom.
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6 and a half years in and it's not ready- I'd be very surprised if this project ever comes full circle. But it's been a heck of a ride and a lot of interesting info and opinions in this thread.
Sorry Pano if this offends the DIY Forum. Been waiting to wade in on something like badman's comment. Nothing here to read here except you, Lynn and a couple of other contributors. I'll prob be dead before Lynn finishes. I find it ridiculous. Yes, I know my term may be up, here. I will accept my punishment. Have you noticed that no-one has build anything to compliment Lynn's design that I have seen. All I see is lip service from "Yes men")
Zene
Zene
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What it can understand, going from one level to the next is not a easy task. Apple spent 3 years just to develop the Earpod, still not perfect but best value for the money I have been able to find.
The thing is trying to find the right driver for the right design is almost impossible when you want to expect a different level of sound quality exceeding what you have already designed, and in each and every way. I have decided to get into more driver design to get the kind of driver that I am looking for. It is possible to spend effort to try and use existing drivers, but they are limiting in different way which make you wonder why the hell didn't they take that little more step to make it more perfect without much increase of recurring cost.
I get a feeling there is a conspiracy to provide more choices in sound rather than reasonably zeroing in on best design. This is kind of hard for people trying to really get closer to accuracy.
I am not offended; nobody here pays me a dime for the new speaker, nor have I ever received payment for the Ariel, Amity, or Karna amplifiers. The only incentive is a mild desire to eventually replace the Ariels, which are now twenty years old ... and I'm still quite satisfied with them, after all these years. Hard to believe they are nearly as old as my daughter, and predate the Web.
I have mixed feelings about the Ariels being as old as they are, and the drivers no longer available. It's been a weird experience going to the RMAF show several years running and preferring my own setup to anything I heard at the show ... but then again, my system is designed to my own tastes, and the equipment at the show is mostly aimed at the magazine reviewers, who have very different tastes than I do.
The first prototypes of the new loudspeaker were up and running more than a year ago at a friend's place in Dallas, so I have a pretty good idea what the version in my living room will sound like ... like a really big, very dynamic version of the Ariel. They will not appeal to controlled-directivity enthusiasts, Klipsch or JBL traditionalists, or to anyone that thinks that Wilson, Magico, or Kharma makes the best speakers in the business. I am absolutely sure Romy the notorious Cat will think they are a complete joke.
All fine by me. Since I'm retired with an independent income, the opinions of the magazines are irrelevant, and I've had plenty of experience getting thrown out of exhibitor's rooms at trade shows. I'm outside the industry, not inside, and my occasional articles in Positive Feedback always manage to offend somebody. Used to it by now. No big deal.
As you can see from the first and second PFO articles, the arcana of R2R, delta-sigma, and DSD converters has engaged my interest for the last year. Still working on understanding what "noise-shaping" really does, and whether or not the delta-sigma and DSD converters have decreased resolution at higher frequencies or not.
As for the new loudspeaker, I'm still undecided on the best approach to the woofer, and will be chatting with friends at the show about just that topic (and many others). The combination of the AH425 Azurahorn and the new Radian 745NEOBePB leaves nothing to be desired, so it's just a matter of the right bass setup.
One thing that surprised me about the first prototypes were different brands of 15" prosound woofers sounding more different from each other than I expected, despite the fact the response is completely flat (they're in the piston band from 700 Hz on down) and IM distortion at domestic listening levels is quite low. They should have sounded identical; they didn't. The RMAF will be a good opportunity to ask what's going on in the bass range ... magnet design, differences in suspension, and the sonic differences between direct-radiator arrays vs short horns.
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Lynn,
Is there a summary of your impressions about the various 15" woofers you tried? Due to the size of this thread, searching and finding the desired information is difficult.