Re: Lynn would you mind?
PM means private message = private email... you have to enable that in your user control panel )user cp button on the top right of the page -- IIRC the Edit options tab). By default it is turned off... when it is turned on you will see an email button right next to your www buttons...
dave
moray james said:
Lynn Olson said:
PM means private message = private email... you have to enable that in your user control panel )user cp button on the top right of the page -- IIRC the Edit options tab). By default it is turned off... when it is turned on you will see an email button right next to your www buttons...
dave
Hello Lynn,
What do you think about this 10" TAD ? It is a pro driver, new design for monitor use, alnico motor, fair SPL.
There are here some more drivers to consider, like the two 12" midrange drivers optimised for 200-3000Hz operation, or the 15" drivers for bass. All are alnico motors and I guess small distorsions it's another atribute at least how they are marketing it...
I'd love to get more involved in this thread but being a student (and exams knocking) in a domain with little relevance for audio design doesn't leave me much time. I have an ideea for an OB following your remarks about the torus shape but the actually computer I have it's to slow for the 3D software I am usually using for modeling these. Maybe I'll try a hand-made sketch and post it.
planet10,
what are you using for those 3d drawings of yours? It's Linux based cause I don't know it...
I know Lynne has ultimate performance in mind but Moray James has a good idea with the install Tannoy drivers. Perhaps you could be onto something there for a Poor Mans Version. I had a look at them all: the 8" looks the best of the bunch:
http://www.tannoy.com/media/CMS801-DC-data-file.pdf
The 5" looks pretty rough though, the 6.5" better. It requires someone with a loaded wallet to take a leap of faith and to tell us all about them though!
Simon
http://www.tannoy.com/media/CMS801-DC-data-file.pdf
The 5" looks pretty rough though, the 6.5" better. It requires someone with a loaded wallet to take a leap of faith and to tell us all about them though!
Simon
Metal is a cone material we should all avoid if possible. The raw Tannoy drivers are very expensive, even the little 6.5 wideband ceiling speaker is ~$200.
Eminence has a HempTone (tm) 10, and 12" which look okay in the published FR plot, and I would imagine have similar breakup characteristics, or lack of, to the Tone Tubby stuff. Mud mags both.
www.usspeaker.com
I think the price premium for the combination of HempTone and Alnico is easily justified with the Tone Tubby. I am more interested in the 10, which demonstrated the ability to output almost unbelievable HF range, when wrenched with active contouring. I like the 10, ALOT. There will be forthcoming an 8 inch wideband, 94db HempTone with hemp dustcap, designed to 8.5KHz, if that helps at all. Release is "soon." Seen it, not heard it.
Eminence has a HempTone (tm) 10, and 12" which look okay in the published FR plot, and I would imagine have similar breakup characteristics, or lack of, to the Tone Tubby stuff. Mud mags both.
www.usspeaker.com
I think the price premium for the combination of HempTone and Alnico is easily justified with the Tone Tubby. I am more interested in the 10, which demonstrated the ability to output almost unbelievable HF range, when wrenched with active contouring. I like the 10, ALOT. There will be forthcoming an 8 inch wideband, 94db HempTone with hemp dustcap, designed to 8.5KHz, if that helps at all. Release is "soon." Seen it, not heard it.
Re: you might consider...
is this the one?
http://www.tannoy.com/default.asp?id=8791
moray james said:
is this the one?
http://www.tannoy.com/default.asp?id=8791
I think the TAD's have to be included in candidates for this project. They are a premmium speaker..And pricey. But I couldn't find much info, including curves, about those models. Still, response to 3000, that's a great start.
The list most interesting to me is:
Hemp acoustics co-ax
Hemp conventional speakers; Hemp Acoustics, tone tubbies, Eminence
Eighteen Sound
TAD
Regarding the Heil AMT drivers, One thing to keep in mind is that I believe that they are bipoles not dipoles. Sound to the front and back is in phase. They might not mate well with a conventional driver in an open baffle because of this..I don't know. It also is a question whether the current models actually can be open to the rear..
The list most interesting to me is:
Hemp acoustics co-ax
Hemp conventional speakers; Hemp Acoustics, tone tubbies, Eminence
Eighteen Sound
TAD
Regarding the Heil AMT drivers, One thing to keep in mind is that I believe that they are bipoles not dipoles. Sound to the front and back is in phase. They might not mate well with a conventional driver in an open baffle because of this..I don't know. It also is a question whether the current models actually can be open to the rear..
Tannoy DC...
Chrisb yes the IW4 DC goes reasonably deep plays loud is clean smooth and has excellent dispersion qualities. Cheap too.
Dmason... I don't think that $200.00 is an awfull lot for a Tannoy Dual Concentric 6.5 inch driver. That's a two way unit that has a big VC on the cone and a real comp driver with a horn and it works. These have real bandwidth (including power handling) and lots of top end which play way louder than any similar priced full range driver that will need modification as well as a tweeter to get the job done. Seems reasonable to me.
Which full range drivers below $200.00 would you consider as options? The FE206E comes to mind but I think needs some work and the FE207E needs a tweeter. Perhaps an Enabled 167 or 166 might get the job done but again they will need some work. If a short list of possible drivers can be put together then some sort of game plan can evolve. Regards Moray James.
Chrisb yes the IW4 DC goes reasonably deep plays loud is clean smooth and has excellent dispersion qualities. Cheap too.
Dmason... I don't think that $200.00 is an awfull lot for a Tannoy Dual Concentric 6.5 inch driver. That's a two way unit that has a big VC on the cone and a real comp driver with a horn and it works. These have real bandwidth (including power handling) and lots of top end which play way louder than any similar priced full range driver that will need modification as well as a tweeter to get the job done. Seems reasonable to me.
Which full range drivers below $200.00 would you consider as options? The FE206E comes to mind but I think needs some work and the FE207E needs a tweeter. Perhaps an Enabled 167 or 166 might get the job done but again they will need some work. If a short list of possible drivers can be put together then some sort of game plan can evolve. Regards Moray James.
Heils are Dipoles...
Variac... the heil uses a horizontally pleated membrain that looks just like an accordian. When the driver is fed a signal the pleats squeeze together on the front side and open on the back side then the cycle reverses. So like a bellows while it pushes on the front side it is drawing in air on the back. If it were a simple case of horizontal push and pull then it would behave as a bipole. Regards Moray James.
Variac... the heil uses a horizontally pleated membrain that looks just like an accordian. When the driver is fed a signal the pleats squeeze together on the front side and open on the back side then the cycle reverses. So like a bellows while it pushes on the front side it is drawing in air on the back. If it were a simple case of horizontal push and pull then it would behave as a bipole. Regards Moray James.
In wall Tannoy...
versions are less expensive than ceiling but yes I agree that is getting up there. Will check into the prices for contractors. Given that these work well they may not be out of contention. Remember guys are paying almost $300.00 US funds for sota tweeters today. So what else would make a short list? What about a 3 -4 inch wide line source ESL with 1 - 1.5 mm gap and lots of tension for good efficiency to get you down to a couple of hundred hertz? Regards Moray James.
versions are less expensive than ceiling but yes I agree that is getting up there. Will check into the prices for contractors. Given that these work well they may not be out of contention. Remember guys are paying almost $300.00 US funds for sota tweeters today. So what else would make a short list? What about a 3 -4 inch wide line source ESL with 1 - 1.5 mm gap and lots of tension for good efficiency to get you down to a couple of hundred hertz? Regards Moray James.
If the Tannoys are to be considered, the 12" (in a can -- CMS12TDC) is probably in keeping with Lynn's goals, has a paper cone instead of a plastic (i had a set of the 8" in the Dimension cabinets, while good, i prefer a set of Fonkens)... Still i'd love to have a set of the 4s to play with. The pricing should be -- based on 2000 pricing that i have ($650 USD/pr) -- in the same general ballpark of many of the drivers being considered.
Note that to get these, you have to be an "installer/dealer" so a group buy would need to revolve around one of these (even if it is one of use, just signing up to do this one buy)
dave
Note that to get these, you have to be an "installer/dealer" so a group buy would need to revolve around one of these (even if it is one of use, just signing up to do this one buy)
dave
dmason said:
You've seen curves? From TT or anyone else? Very curious what you saw about the HF side of things for the 10" Alnico TT - how does it compare to what I measured for the 12" driver - what kind of EQ, notch filter, overall EQ, etc.
I'm of the school that is reluctant to "boost" drivers in any part of their range, but am quite willing to apply strategically shaped rolloff curves and notch filters when necessary.
As for the Tannoys, I've heard the poly-cone versions, and no way am I interested in those. But the 10 or 12-inch paper-cones at the contractor price - now, that would be interesting!
Re: Tannoy DC...
From my own experience, I would rule out Fostex drivers. The factory FR curves are unreliable, and the violent response that's really there is almost uncorrectable by crossover network - many peaks and dips, and response curves like a 6 x 9 car speaker. Plus, they sound pretty awful in every speaker I've heard - raucous, harsh, and seem to "flat-top" dynamically around 95 dB.
I must confess that to some extent I am over-correcting from the Ariel, with its pint-size 5.5" Vifa drivers. Yes, they're ever so smooth and silky, with wonderful vocal qualities, but they run out of gas around 100 ~ 105 dB (yes, I've played them that loud). I want much more dynamic range this time around, at least 10 dB more. Seriously, I do.
Now the problem is finding drivers that have even moderately smooth responses, since we've officially left audiophile territory. Then again, audiophile drivers have left me, since the latest crop of audiophile jewels with advanced cones are now as rough, or rougher, than prosound, but without prosound dynamics!
moray james said:
From my own experience, I would rule out Fostex drivers. The factory FR curves are unreliable, and the violent response that's really there is almost uncorrectable by crossover network - many peaks and dips, and response curves like a 6 x 9 car speaker. Plus, they sound pretty awful in every speaker I've heard - raucous, harsh, and seem to "flat-top" dynamically around 95 dB.
I must confess that to some extent I am over-correcting from the Ariel, with its pint-size 5.5" Vifa drivers. Yes, they're ever so smooth and silky, with wonderful vocal qualities, but they run out of gas around 100 ~ 105 dB (yes, I've played them that loud). I want much more dynamic range this time around, at least 10 dB more. Seriously, I do.
Now the problem is finding drivers that have even moderately smooth responses, since we've officially left audiophile territory. Then again, audiophile drivers have left me, since the latest crop of audiophile jewels with advanced cones are now as rough, or rougher, than prosound, but without prosound dynamics!
I really wonder if TAD is as good as they are praised. If I'd had to choose just from PA audio (which I am considering more and more) then I guess TAD, Precision Devices, 18Sound and PHL would be the first choices, specialy considering midrange aplications.
Unfortunately my beliefs are based only from review's and rumors; bringing these to discussion and doing a proper selection would be a great benefit.
Unfortunately my beliefs are based only from review's and rumors; bringing these to discussion and doing a proper selection would be a great benefit.
12" Beyma... Liberty 8
I was looking for a 12" guitar speaker with smooth response yesterday and stubled upon this speaker.
I'm wondering if it is a candidate for your project? It has smoother (published) response than a great deal of hifi and pro product. It also doesn't have any of the ragged topend or peaky breakup.
Just a thought,
C
I was looking for a 12" guitar speaker with smooth response yesterday and stubled upon this speaker.
I'm wondering if it is a candidate for your project? It has smoother (published) response than a great deal of hifi and pro product. It also doesn't have any of the ragged topend or peaky breakup.
Just a thought,
C
Attachments
Lynn
Nothing at all scientific, a pair of TT 10 popped out of a Fender Twin and mounted on a baffle, using an EMU 1616 PEQ patch, VERY impressed with the clean, smooth, and ultra-musical reach of the TT 10 Alnico. Clearly higher reach than that indicated on your graph. ...TT send their drivers out for independent analysis, and I explained to them at NAMM that FR plots would be useful for the non-rockers interested in their wares. I am a strong believer in these two drivers.
Nothing at all scientific, a pair of TT 10 popped out of a Fender Twin and mounted on a baffle, using an EMU 1616 PEQ patch, VERY impressed with the clean, smooth, and ultra-musical reach of the TT 10 Alnico. Clearly higher reach than that indicated on your graph. ...TT send their drivers out for independent analysis, and I explained to them at NAMM that FR plots would be useful for the non-rockers interested in their wares. I am a strong believer in these two drivers.