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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

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Old 7th June 2013, 11:02 AM   #8951
pos is offline pos  Europe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dumptruck View Post
But the free air impedance phase graph looks like it's got issues to match the response, no? It's got blips around 120Hz, 375Hz, and everywhere above 1k.
found another measurement:
Click the image to open in full size.

the dip is still there, albeit less deep
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Old 7th June 2013, 11:13 AM   #8952
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Lynn, have you tried the ejmmlc variant that try to favor horizontal directivity control?
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Old 7th June 2013, 07:48 PM   #8953
ScottG is offline ScottG  United States
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Originally Posted by Lynn Olson View Post
..most other horns I've auditioned, which can sound very different as you walk around the room (for example, when you walk out of the beam of a conical horn)..
TAD + Goto horns - YouTube
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Old 9th June 2013, 03:27 AM   #8954
soongsc is offline soongsc  Taiwan
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It seems to me the LeCleach type expansion is quite ideal although I have never auditioned them. What I like is the expansion from compression driver through the horn is gradual and seems closer to natural expansion. This expansion curve shaping has great effect on damping of stored energy at the throat's low frequency performance.
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Old 14th June 2013, 09:40 PM   #8955
nuconz is offline nuconz  United States
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Originally Posted by tinitus View Post
then I would rather recommend the FaitalPro HF100

FaitalPRO | HF Drivers | HF100
just got a real good deal off ebay for a pair of these ($70 - shipping included)!

seller still has more.

now i need to add a pair of woofers for the bottom end. what about the jbl 2225?

will add subs later.
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Old 14th June 2013, 11:56 PM   #8956
pos is offline pos  Europe
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Some interesting comments from Joachim Gerhard that cover parts of the discussions we had here last week (high Qms/low Rms, and trend in modern drivers)

SpeakerBuilding.com - Interview with Joachim Gerhard of Audio Physic

Quote:
Later, in the 80's, manufacturers started to add more mass, they added more damping, and they made surrounds with high loss. That gave an extremely flat frequency response, but also a lot of energy storage. This compared, the old drivers were much quicker. They had some resonances, but you could get rid of that in the crossover. It was this run for flat response that gave a lot of modern drivers this dull, uninteresting sound. And you can also measure higher second and third harmonic distortion in some of them. If you compare the on-axis response between an old and new driver; you will see that the energy in the treble is far higher than in the new drivers. These so-called "modern" drivers often has a Qms of maybe 0.8 or 0.6. The old drivers had Qms values of maybe 5 to 7! We found that drivers with a very high mechanical Q sound more open, more clean and dynamic. And when you look at it, you find it is very simple, because they have less loss. The surround is easier to move, the spider is better constructed, they have better air flow, higher sensitivity. So a high mechanical Q is a very good indicator of energy storage behavior. This is one of our secrets. One of the many!
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Old 15th June 2013, 12:16 AM   #8957
Face is offline Face  United States
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Originally Posted by nuconz View Post
just got a real good deal off ebay for a pair of these ($70 - shipping included)!

seller still has more.

will add subs later.
I wish I could get a straight answer on their exit angle.
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Old 15th June 2013, 06:26 AM   #8958
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pos View Post
Some interesting comments from Joachim Gerhard that cover parts of the discussions we had here last week (high Qms/low Rms, and trend in modern drivers)

Quote:
Later, in the 80's, manufacturers started to add more mass, they added more damping, and they made surrounds with high loss. That gave an extremely flat frequency response, but also a lot of energy storage.
SpeakerBuilding.com - Interview with Joachim Gerhard of Audio Physic
While I agree with the general thrust of the article (which I read many years ago btw) that drivers that achieve their target Qts with a high Qms often sound better, the statement I've highlighted is pure nonsense.

How exactly does adding a more lossy surround and achieving a lower Qms increase "energy storage" ? It doesn't, it decreases it, by definition.

The overall energy storage at bass frequencies is going to be dictated by the Qts anyway not Qms alone.

I suspect what's really going on is that drivers with low Rms and high Qms have reduced suspension hysteresis effects in the final output at low drive levels due to their overall cone "control" being more heavily electrical (Qes) rather than mechanical. (Qms) Because of this the effects of any level dependent hysteresis and other odd time variant non-linear effects of the suspension are minimised.
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Last edited by DBMandrake; 15th June 2013 at 06:31 AM.
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Old 15th June 2013, 10:36 AM   #8959
Elias is offline Elias  Finland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DBMandrake View Post
While I agree with the general thrust of the article (which I read many years ago btw) that drivers that achieve their target Qts with a high Qms often sound better, the statement I've highlighted is pure nonsense.

How exactly does adding a more lossy surround and achieving a lower Qms increase "energy storage" ? It doesn't, it decreases it, by definition.

Actually he said: (highlight mine)
Quote:
Later, in the 80's, manufacturers started to add more mass, they added more damping, and they made surrounds with high loss. That gave an extremely flat frequency response, but also a lot of energy storage.

And because more mass equals more energy E=m*c^2, you know
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Old 16th June 2013, 06:25 AM   #8960
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But, mass aside, Qms is a direct measure of mechnical energy storage. A low Qms driver has lower mechanical energy storage. So his comment is still backwards. Mass alone does not dictate energy storage.
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