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Old 30th April 2013, 09:02 PM   #8661
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The Beyma coaxes seem to be very good as well.

Beyma 15XA38ND - Audio Voice Acoustics

As I said, the Beymas keeps sounding like a dream to my taste.They are, by far, simply the best home speaker systems I have heard. Ever. Regardless of price, size or type .I have not yet finished the big boxes I have planned for them. That have to wait for warmer weather since I have to do the carpentry work on my patio and it's still freezing winter here. But even in small temporary 100 liter sealed boxes they sound fantastic, albeit helped a little with a Behringer active sub. I'll make the bigger 400 liter boxes sealed as well. I prefer that to ported ones. I like that tight, precise bass better than the ŽlooseŽ bass from ported boxed. Just a matter of taste, I guess. Anyway, I hope I can ditch the subwoofer when finishing the larger boxes.

I have regularly been comparing the Beymas to some well reputed vintage, newly reconed 15" Tannoy coax units that a friend of mine owns. Those Tannoys got me hooked on big coax speakers. But compared to the Beymas they lose big time on all parameters. With the Tannoys, you hear the speakers playing musik. And they do play really great. But you still hear the speakers. With the Beymas, you only hear the music. No colorations or limitations. They are no less than flawless IMO. The only 'unnatural' thing about them is the fact that they can, in fact, play acoustic piano music louder than an actual piano. They can even play a snare drum louder than the real thing, with no audible loss of dynamic whack. **** High Fidelity - this is Real ******* Dynamic Fidelity!
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Old 1st May 2013, 12:38 AM   #8662
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubamark View Post
Lynn,

I thought that co-ax systems were ruled-out completely very early-on in this thread for various reasons - impossible to refine to the level you desired due to the known compromises of the woofer being the horn IIRC. Some excellent drivers were considered at the time but ruled-out.

What has changed? Is it because the application is not 2-channel music-only?

Thnx,
-- Mark
The 12" or 15" coaxial driver is only for the Center speaker, which in turn will only be used for home theater. No fancy triode amplifier, or Burr-Brown PCM1704 converter, as the signal source ... just whatever mundane opamps and converters that are inside the Marantz AV8003/MM8003 combo.

That said, I don't want it to be trash ... been down that road already, no need to go there again. The existing Dynaudio CSX is a pretty decent center speaker, but the side-by-side MTM driver layout impairs dialog clarity.

Thus, coax, which sounds pretty much the same wherever you sit, and has way more dynamic range than 4" to 6" fullrange drivers. Not a fan of whizzer cones, no matter whether it is Zu (Eminence), Lowther, AER, or Feastrex.

The gotcha with coax is getting reasonably smooth response from the bass driver ... if the response isn't smooth, not interested. Also not interested in vintage or unobtanium drivers. There are great unobtanium drivers out there, particularly some of the old-school fullrangers or coaxes, but I don't want to design a modern crossover for a rare driver that commands a high price on the used market.

I am just barely well-known enough in audio circles that a modern, LTO-designed crossover would have a material impact on the collector market, driving up prices and increasing scarcity. I was told by Madisound that the demand for the Vifa 5.5" midbass used in the Ariel actually kept the driver in production for a number of years. Don't know if that's true or not, although it's kind of flattering, but then again, I've never received a dime's worth of royalties from the Ariel project, so I have no way of verifying the story.

This is the real reason I avoid vintage drivers, unless I can sweet-talk a manufacturer into making new versions. Back when I was writing for Ed Dell's Glass Audio magazine, I was able to persuade JJ into manufacturing a new version of the 7119, which became the JJ ECC99, and has become a fairly successful seller for JJ Electronics. Likewise for the AH425 Azurahorn and Acoustic Elegance LO15 driver.

Last edited by Lynn Olson; 1st May 2013 at 12:56 AM.
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Old 1st May 2013, 01:48 AM   #8663
Variac is offline Variac  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by angeloitacare View Post
The Beyma coaxes seem to be very good as well.
Neo magnets which should catch Lynn's attention!
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Old 1st May 2013, 07:23 AM   #8664
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Just received a detailed and helpful letter from one of the coax-experienced posters here: the essence is to keep it small, like 10 inches, for best intelligibility over a broad area, along with a favorable comment about the Tannoy DC12i, designed for in-wall soffit mounting. The box of the DC12i is big enough that it's obviously intended for high-end projection setups, not plasma screens.

Will look again at the smaller Radian 5210, with a crossover in the 1.5 to 2 kHz region, priced at $279 at US Speakers. Intelligibility combined with peak-free response (which immediately disqualifies whizzer-cone drivers) are the design goals; musicality would be a nice plus, but I think smooth response, a good crossover, and a low-diffraction box (large-radius corners) should take care of that.

Last edited by Lynn Olson; 1st May 2013 at 07:45 AM.
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Old 1st May 2013, 08:09 AM   #8665
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Just a little "picture" showing the size of such Coax drivers - I cross mine at approx 1.3khz if my memory serves me right.. About 950hz is recommended. Tried and didn't like it..
Here is my 15" next to a SS revelator 18w8531

Click the image to open in full size.
My old Oris Reference Ultra with AER md3 fullrange drivers and 15" Neodym BD woofer in the background..
The coaxes are better in every single way I must admit, but not so sensitive.

Last edited by bambadoo; 1st May 2013 at 08:23 AM.
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Old 1st May 2013, 08:15 AM   #8666
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Here's the published frequency responses of the Beyma 15XA38Nd (left), along with the Tannoy DC12i (middle). Both are a lot rougher than I'm used to working with, which leaves me curious what the unsmoothed response of the Radian 5210 (right) looks like.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Beyma_FR.jpg (77.1 KB, 608 views)
File Type: jpg Tannoy_FR.jpg (62.9 KB, 562 views)
File Type: jpg Radian_FR.jpg (82.1 KB, 563 views)

Last edited by Lynn Olson; 1st May 2013 at 08:27 AM.
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Old 1st May 2013, 09:55 AM   #8667
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I was looking at at coaxoals and noticed hoe many times the compression driver shows a pretty large rise in 3rd harmonic distortion in the higher frequencies. Is this due to the fact that the moving woofer cone is acting as its horn. The individual compression driver specs do not show this rise on standard horns.
Here is a Tannoy recommended to me. I believe they are tthe same but cannot promise it.
http://www.fullcompass.com/common/fi...data_sheet.pdf
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Old 1st May 2013, 10:03 AM   #8668
DrBoar is offline DrBoar  Sweden
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The guys at No Frills Audio use modified Beyma coax drivers
Cavemanklanen | NO-FRILLS-AUDIO by P.C.B

They have replaced the HF membrane and added damping both on LF membrane and other components. They really like the Beyma drivers
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Old 1st May 2013, 02:55 PM   #8669
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Originally Posted by buzzforb View Post
. . . rise in 3rd harmonic distortion in the higher frequencies. Is this due to the fact that the moving woofer cone is acting as its horn.
I doubt that woofer motion is in play for published specs (it sure would be for music). Response is probably measured with a swept tone - woofer motion should be extremely small by the time the tweeter output appears in the measurements.

The possibly more audible problem is the unavoidable diffraction at at least 3 places:
where horn meets cone (even without woofer in motion), typically followed by a ring of glue and dustcap, and ending with the lousy woofer-as-waveguide edge termination.
Although always a good idea, nicely radiused cabinet edges might be like lipstick on a pig by this point.

I suppose the woofer-waveguide termination could be mitigated somewhat by covering the edge (including the surround) and front panel with dense foam.

-- Mark

Last edited by Tubamark; 1st May 2013 at 03:09 PM.
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Old 2nd May 2013, 07:25 PM   #8670
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Originally Posted by Tubamark View Post

I suppose the woofer-waveguide termination could be mitigated somewhat by covering the edge (including the surround) and front panel with dense foam.

-- Mark
- or by creating a flower petal-like edge to the throat to distribute the reflections over a band of frequencies rather than be specific to a single frequency. I believe something like this was at play in the design of the tops of the smoke stacks/funnels on the old Mississippi riverboats, presumably to smear the tuning.
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