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Old 22nd April 2013, 02:33 AM   #8591
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshua_G View Post
Is it allowed to regress from beyond Ariel to Ariel?

I'm sorry if it was asked and answered before, I cannot follow the entire thread.

What is the sensitivity of Ariel and what's the minimum power required in order to enjoy their full potential?
To answer your first question - the Ariel is described in detail by Lynn in the Ariel page at Nutshell HiFi.


To answer your second question you need to know how big your room is and how loud you music choices!

It was designed with low power amplifiers in mind and is more than happy at "normal" levels with under 10W. Lynn himself states "The perennial question ... which amplifier? For most readers, it's simple; just get a classic old EL84/6BQ5 push-pull amplifier, and there you go. There are plenty of old Fifties-vintage Eico's, Dyna's, and Scott 20-watt amplifiers still kicking around, and restoration can be done any competent guitar-amp tech. ". Click through for more

Last edited by thoglette; 22nd April 2013 at 02:39 AM. Reason: link fixed
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Old 22nd April 2013, 11:52 AM   #8592
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Thanks.
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Old 23rd April 2013, 04:20 AM   #8593
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshua_G View Post
Is it allowed to regress from beyond Ariel to Ariel?

I'm sorry if it was asked and answered before, I cannot follow the entire thread.

What is the sensitivity of Ariel and what's the minimum power required in order to enjoy their full potential?
The midbass driver for the Ariel has gone out of production. Actually, it's gone in and out of production several times, but Madisound assures me that it really, truly, is out of production now. Since the Ariel was designed in 1993, it's probably not surprising the drivers have gone away after some twenty years.

Back when I designed it, I was hoping there could be a Super Ariel that was similar, but with a bit more efficient drivers, maybe even a version with a 6.5" or 7" midbass. That never happened. Instead, Vifa, Scan-Speak and the others went in the direction of less efficiency and rougher response - not exactly what I expected. My guess is the designer of the Vifa P13 driver and the Scan-Speak D9000 left the company and started Skaaning on his own, along with his son.

If I were to do a revised version of the Ariel with modern drivers, I'd probably look at the Skaaning drivers first, even though they are pretty expensive these days. I would not use Chinese-made drivers that are copies of Scandinavian drivers.

If anyone is interesting in doing their own Super Ariel, you need to find drivers that have extremely smooth in-band and out-of-band response curves. At the time the Ariel was designed, the Vifa midbass and Scan-Speak dome tweeter were the smoothest in the world, which made the suitable for the project. Smooth response in the 2~8 kHz region was extremely important for the midbass driver: most modern midbass drivers, particularly those with rigid Kevlar, carbon-fiber, or other exotic cones have severe breakups in the 4~8 kHz region, requiring notch-filtering or high-order rolloffs in the crossover, which defeats the simplicity of the Ariel project.

The other characteristics that make the Ariel sound like it does are the asymmetric large radii on the left and right cabinet edges, Baltic Birch for the interior construction, the transmission-line vent on the floor, and external crossover.

The key design feature of the crossover is precise phase-tracking of the midbass and tweeter, which is better than 5 degrees, as measured by temporarily connecting the drivers out-of-phase and inspecting the depth of the resulting null (25 to 30 dB).

Last edited by Lynn Olson; 23rd April 2013 at 04:32 AM.
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Old 23rd April 2013, 07:52 AM   #8594
Hylle is offline Hylle  Denmark
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Lynn, take a look at the Scan Speak Revelator and Discovery series, they have actually very nice response curves. They Discovery line is of cause a spin-off of earlyer Vifa lines. An Ariel with two 15W Revelators could be a nice solution.
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Old 23rd April 2013, 03:55 PM   #8595
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Hi Lynn,
Thank you very much.
So, one cannot build the Ariel nowadays, unless one would experiment with some drivers.
If I got it correctly, your suggestion for loudspeakers to replace Ariel, which you call for now LTO, isn't finished yet. Is that correct?
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Old 23rd April 2013, 05:18 PM   #8596
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The LTO is just about finished; I've given it a fair amount of subjective fine-tuning, and the crossover, surprisingly, is close to the "book" values for the woofer and AH425/Radian745Neo. That's mostly because the autoformer/transformer used for attenuating the horn by 12 dB isolates the impedance variations from the crossover, the GPA 416-16 Alnico woofer uses Zobel compensation to correct for VC inductance, and both drivers are very flat in their passbands.

However ... it is a much more expensive loudspeaker than the Ariel, and a lot bigger too. Pretty much the inevitable consequence of wanting more efficiency and more headroom.

Re: the Revelator line. Hmm. The published curves of all the 5.5" Revelator drivers are much rougher than the measurements I've made with MLSSA on the Vifa 5.5", and the efficiency is 2 dB lower, as well. The Revelators I've heard in commercial speakers did not seem acceptable to me; rough response, grainy sound, and I fail to see how a slit cone improves performance.

I hate to say this, but I think Scan-Speak has lost its way. For decades, they made drivers that were the smoothest in the industry, and were very musical. I don't understand what Scan-Speak is trying to do now: they're no longer very flat, don't have outstanding impulse response, are low efficiency compared to other vendors, and are expensive. Why?

Frankly, I was very disappointed when Scan-Speak came out with the Revelator line; the illusion of "more detail" that reviewers mention is actually an artifact of HF breakups from the cone, and is measurable in the time domain. For some reason, reviewers that use high-power Class AB amplifiers consistently mis-identify driver breakups as "more detailed", when really it's just more grainy and edgy-sounding.

I'm sorry if this sounds arrogant: it's really not meant that way. I design loudspeakers and amplifiers to satisfy my own tastes ... and that taste has now diverged pretty far from the mainstream high-end industry.

Last edited by Lynn Olson; 23rd April 2013 at 05:37 PM.
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Old 23rd April 2013, 05:56 PM   #8597
Hylle is offline Hylle  Denmark
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Lynn, I dont think you sound arrogant, I completely follow you. The developement of the Scan Speak drivers are much like where most drivers have gone, to make much bas and high soundpressure in small boxes. An it seems lowest distortin in the pass band has become more important than the out of band response curves.
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Old 23rd April 2013, 06:01 PM   #8598
limono is offline limono  United States
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I think you entered the age which is beyond the target of mainstream high-end industry. I don't know to whom the hell they design their speakers now. Must be the hip-hop generation and old pricks who will fight to last breath(until family drags them by force to nursing home) to stay current , take whatever pill and drink the blood of virgins if necessary And even if one finds decent speaker which doesn't make one run for the shelter the price makes you chuckle ..
Anyway, I look forward to see final incarnation of your speaker . With your design experience I'd love to see something ..ekh more evolved in a shape similar to Living Voice Vox Olympian but I understand all the limiting factors . Rgrds, L

Last edited by limono; 23rd April 2013 at 06:03 PM.
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Old 23rd April 2013, 06:28 PM   #8599
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynn Olson View Post

However ... it is a much more expensive loudspeaker than the Ariel, and a lot bigger too.
Another dream of mine is gone in smoke (for my tiny living room).
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Old 23rd April 2013, 07:51 PM   #8600
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Consider the SB acoustics Satori. Measures very well.
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