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Old 17th March 2013, 11:02 PM   #8411
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Pooh,
I agree that high sensitivity is nice and I don't know any direct radiators that can come close to say a compression driver but there are some good direct radiators with low distortion and high output capabilities. The real problem with very high sensitivity compression drivers on horns is that often a fairly high output amplifier is attached to them. Since they are so high efficiency you will be using the amplifier at very low output, meaning you are in the worst signal to noise area of the amplifier when it is turned so low. So you really need to use low powered amplifiers to drive the compression drivers to a normal listening level and get into the sweet spot on the S/N curve of the amp. And it is obvious that running an amplifier down in the 1/3 power output range is the hardest drive on the amplifier and this is why the testing of amplifier quality is usually done at this level to see how hot it is going to run and see if it will thermal cycle. It always comes back to the system design and each component used as best as possible rather than pure brute force.
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Old 18th March 2013, 07:37 PM   #8412
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Hello Buzzforb

Quote:
I think modern JBL horns actually narrow the throat near the compression driver to intentionally load it more. I am referring to the Everest versions(home use), but doing so only using here-say, as I do not own one.
They are modernized Bi Radials and have a narrower throat at the transition. You can see the difraction slot as in the original 2343/2344. The photo is of an Array Horn just turn it on it's side.

Rob
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Last edited by Robh3606; 18th March 2013 at 07:39 PM.
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Old 18th March 2013, 07:53 PM   #8413
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Pooh,
I originally used a Polydax PR17 driver in the mid-range horn but I am building my own drivers now so would probably make one specifically for that use. I used that horn from 4-600hz up to 1.5Khz and then went into a smaller high frequency horn with a 1" compression driver covering the upper range. My current 6 1/2" is made to do down to 36hz and up to 2.5khz and I would want to change it some to use in the mid-range as I wouldn't need the excursion or the bandwidth that wide.
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Old 18th March 2013, 08:41 PM   #8414
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robh3606 View Post
Hello Buzzforb



They are modernized Bi Radials and have a narrower throat at the transition. You can see the difraction slot as in the original 2343/2344. The photo is of an Array Horn just turn it on it's side.

Rob
There it is. Couple fellas on audio heritage did pretty good job o cloingthat baby. Asked for plans multiple times, but no response. Also beautiful dd6600 Everest there as well. I don't thin Gedlee is speaking anything but the truth about his products and research. Beautiful and hard earned information. They probably sound wonderfully. I am just not in the camp that says this horn or that waveguide is superior because of X. It simply leaves out the most important pat of the equation. The listener. Which is an individual with individual taste.
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Old 18th March 2013, 10:00 PM   #8415
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POOH, there is no need to offend other people that way you do

I suggest you tone it down a bit


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Old 18th March 2013, 11:24 PM   #8416
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kindhornman View Post
Pooh,
I originally used a Polydax PR17 driver in the mid-range horn but I am building my own drivers now so would probably make one specifically for that use. I used that horn from 4-600hz up to 1.5Khz and then went into a smaller high frequency horn with a 1" compression driver covering the upper range. My current 6 1/2" is made to do down to 36hz and up to 2.5khz and I would want to change it some to use in the mid-range as I wouldn't need the excursion or the bandwidth that wide.
I find it difficult to get the proper phase plug for cone midrange horns. Whatever I used or built they still beamed too much, that is why I like to go to a well designed compression driver and cross over in the lower vocal range - around 300 cycles. What do you use for your phasing plug for your cone driven midrange? Also when i use cones in horns I try and keep the driver electrical Q low and the resonance high. It never occurred to me to use a low fs (36) cone in a midhorn. Why do you do that?
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Old 18th March 2013, 11:38 PM   #8417
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kindhornman View Post
Pooh,
I agree that high sensitivity is nice and I don't know any direct radiators that can come close to say a compression driver but there are some good direct radiators with low distortion and high output capabilities. The real problem with very high sensitivity compression drivers on horns is that often a fairly high output amplifier is attached to them. Since they are so high efficiency you will be using the amplifier at very low output, meaning you are in the worst signal to noise area of the amplifier when it is turned so low. So you really need to use low powered amplifiers to drive the compression drivers to a normal listening level and get into the sweet spot on the S/N curve of the amp. And it is obvious that running an amplifier down in the 1/3 power output range is the hardest drive on the amplifier and this is why the testing of amplifier quality is usually done at this level to see how hot it is going to run and see if it will thermal cycle. It always comes back to the system design and each component used as best as possible rather than pure brute force.
Some old Sanyo opamps biased into class A for the first 5=6 watts works good, need a very quiet power supply too if you want the low level detail and black velvet back ground
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Old 18th March 2013, 11:53 PM   #8418
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Pooh,
I said I wouldn't use the 6 1/2" that I have with those parameters, I would change them for a midrange. I don't use a phasing plug in my horn design, it is a loaded design, there is a small chamber in front of the driver loading it 25%. Most cone drivers on horns are used unloaded and that is why you have the beaming problems. There is no real coupling between the diaphragm and the horn, they are usually to large and never create a loading on the diaphragm.

I just don't like the sound of any compression driver that low, it give that horn sound that is just so identifiable and is instantly recognized as a compression driver on a horn. Even a 2" exit driver has this affect and that is why you never see that in even pro audio anymore, that is something we have gotten away from for a long time now. A cone just sounds much better on a horn if you insist on going that low with a horn.
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Old 19th March 2013, 12:03 AM   #8419
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kindhornman View Post
Pooh,
I said I wouldn't use the 6 1/2" that I have with those parameters, I would change them for a midrange. I don't use a phasing plug in my horn design, it is a loaded design, there is a small chamber in front of the driver loading it 25%. Most cone drivers on horns are used unloaded and that is why you have the beaming problems. There is no real coupling between the diaphragm and the horn, they are usually to large and never create a loading on the diaphragm.

I just don't like the sound of any compression driver that low, it give that horn sound that is just so identifiable and is instantly recognized as a compression driver on a horn. Even a 2" exit driver has this affect and that is why you never see that in even pro audio anymore, that is something we have gotten away from for a long time now. A cone just sounds much better on a horn if you insist on going that low with a horn.
I misunderstood, i wondered why anybody would use a low fs driver in midhorn. Front chambers I like in bass horn because they are for limiting bandwith in the upper end. Normally in a midhorn you want to get up higher then front chambers allow. Back chambers I find are pretty irrelevant in horns above 300 cycles, but front chambers always compromise the top end of the response.

When you use a compression driver in a 2 foot deep 30" wide horn with a 4" dome and a 220 HZ flare it works fine down to 350 cycles. If i was to try and mate it with a low efficiency direct radiator like a 98 db/w 15 it does not mate up because the bass sucks compared to the midrange. that's why I use bass horns. I do not want to say what you are doing "sucks" because the moderators say i am being bad, so I will say if you think it is good it is good.
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Old 19th March 2013, 01:07 AM   #8420
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Let's just agree to disagree here.
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