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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

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Old 16th March 2013, 04:49 PM   #8371
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Originally Posted by Kindhornman View Post
Pooh,
Where do you get this idea that horn length changes take the basic function of a horn away? Whether it is an old Altec, JBL, or a newer design by Gedlee or the Seos has nothing to do with the fact that they have to follow the same basic physics. Yes the frequency that they're loading may be directed at and the frequency response and polar response may change they are all working as waveguides. To say that any of these designs does not load the driver is folly, without a proper load any compression driver will soon fail due to over excursion if any real power is applied to the device. Mouth size and flare rate have everything to do with loading of the device. You are only shifting frequencies and polar response. If you don't understand that you have no real understanding of a waveguide.

The waveguides are only a few inches long, it does not load the driver like for example a JBL 2350 or a 300 Hz flare rate tractrix horn. as Gedlee, he'll tell you the same thing. How is a 6" deep 12" diameter "waveguide" going to load a driver like a 12" diameter 14" deep tractrix horn? It won't and it don't. I happen to prefer the horn over these short waveguides, pick your poison.
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Old 16th March 2013, 05:07 PM   #8372
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Waveguide and horn are only a semantic difference and can be interchanged. Even a short 1/4" front plate on a dome tweeter is technically both a horn and waveguide. As I said it is only the frequency and the pattern control that is being changed, not the basic physics of how they work. I highly doubt that Earl will say otherwise. Now what he prefers to use in his audio systems has more to do with the directivity that he has determined are a minimum requirement to meet his end goals.
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Old 16th March 2013, 05:55 PM   #8373
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Originally Posted by Kindhornman View Post
Waveguide and horn are only a semantic difference and can be interchanged. Even a short 1/4" front plate on a dome tweeter is technically both a horn and waveguide. As I said it is only the frequency and the pattern control that is being changed, not the basic physics of how they work. I highly doubt that Earl will say otherwise. Now what he prefers to use in his audio systems has more to do with the directivity that he has determined are a minimum requirement to meet his end goals.
LOL, the short waveguides do not load the driver like a real horn does., I did not say the coined name "waveguide" is not a horn, I'm saying it does not load the driver like a good horn does. I will not argue this fact with you. I don't care if the guy that coined the "waveguide" calls it a horn or not - if the gedlee was worried about directivety so much maybe he should use a short "waveguide" (that does not load) for directivety in the midrange and bass.
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Old 16th March 2013, 06:02 PM   #8374
DougL is offline DougL  United States
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As I said it is only the frequency and the pattern control that is being changed, not the basic physics of how they work.
There were graphs presented earlier in the thread that different horn/waveguide profiles had different VSWR characteristics. IIRC, the waveguides were not optimized for this, rather they sacrificed loading for constant directivity. That's just physics.
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Old 16th March 2013, 06:19 PM   #8375
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I never used the word constant directivity, I am only arguing the fact that all of these designs are waveguides. Optimization of loading of a driver is frequency and device specific. It all comes down to the final results you are attempting to accomplish. But when you say that a short waveguide is not a horn you are way off the mark. If you only want to call a traditional exponential horn a horn you can do that but it is not correct in a technical way. I agree that the loading of any conic horn is sub optimal, that is a given, they are not designed for maximum efficiency, nor are they really constant directivity in a true sense.
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Old 16th March 2013, 08:35 PM   #8376
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Originally Posted by Kindhornman View Post
I never used the word constant directivity, I am only arguing the fact that all of these designs are waveguides. Optimization of loading of a driver is frequency and device specific. It all comes down to the final results you are attempting to accomplish. But when you say that a short waveguide is not a horn you are way off the mark. If you only want to call a traditional exponential horn a horn you can do that but it is not correct in a technical way. I agree that the loading of any conic horn is sub optimal, that is a given, they are not designed for maximum efficiency, nor are they really constant directivity in a true sense.
Oh my, I said a waveguide like the SEOS I have is not like a horn in the FACT it does not load the driver. I cannot make it any clearer for you. I do not say anything like it is not a horn and do not care what anybody calls it. The short horns like geddee uses are not my idea of a proper horn. A peoper horn will act as a transformer with the air load, the short horns are not like this they are like listening to a dome tweeter rather than a live instrument. If I wanted to listen to a dome tweeter I'd by some Mackie monitors and be done with it
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Old 16th March 2013, 11:12 PM   #8377
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Pooh,
It is a real shame that you believe what you must have read somewhere, but it is very poor information. Do you happen to know the TAD ET-703 driver. Go look that up, you will be very surprised how small a horn can be, and this has a compression driver attached. You are completely wrong in your assumption. You are saying that only an old radial or multicell horn is a horn and works as a horn does. I and Gedlee have been doing this for far to long to accept your narrow interpretation of what a horn is. Even a cone driver can follow the rules, I think I should know as I have a patent in horn design from 36 years ago. You are just repeating some misinformation, that is all.

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Old 16th March 2013, 11:52 PM   #8378
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I'm not sure if it's your listening or reading skills but you really have a problem with one or both of them. I have NOT said what a horn is or what it is not! What I have said, please listen to what I say AGAIN, the short waveguide "horns" that are like "SEOS" or gedle DO NOT load the driver like deeper, longer, horns. I will not repeat myself again. They can't because they are too short for the bandwith they are used. GET IT?
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Old 17th March 2013, 12:18 AM   #8379
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Pooh,
That statement I can completely agree with. But I don't think that Gedlee is attempting to use the device as low as a traditional horn would go. I agree with a faster flare rate and smaller mouth they and the SEOS horns are truly high frequency devices and I wouldn't want to try and use them for low frequency reinforcement. We are on the same page with that. Typical radial horns will have a low frequency cutoff of from 300 to 800hz with a compression driver though I can't stand the sound of them that low. When we used those in pro audio applications we usually cut them at twice their rated low frequency cutoff based on 1/4 mouth size. So if you are trying to go from say a 15" bass speaker to the horn yes you would want to use a much larger horn for that. I have a midrange cone driven horn for that with a 600hz mouth size that can cover that range. And it is a loaded horn with a 25% loading factor, throat to cone sd area. Now I think we are talking the same language.
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Old 17th March 2013, 01:38 PM   #8380
gedlee is offline gedlee  United States
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Originally Posted by Kindhornman View Post
I highly doubt that Earl will say otherwise.
Well actually I would - this is explained on my website in the paper What is a waveguide?

Last edited by gedlee; 17th March 2013 at 01:46 PM.
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